2016 Election

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#2,201
#2,201
n_huffhines said:
I don't disagree with Aristotle. He wasn't talking about Lincoln killing hundreds of thousands of Americans when he said this. He wasn't talking about FDR exacerbating the great depression. He wasn't talking about Wilson daring the Germans to sink the Lusitania. He wasn't talking about Andrew Jackson treating Indians like ****.
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The point you were making Huff was that historians only focus on leaders that had a major catastrophe to deal with. Simply not true, and if you had the unfortunate pleasure of being in some of my history courses you would understand that historians have literally written about anything. (I am not saying this out of arrogance so don't take it that way.) Actually, in the last 5 years there have been lots of historians to focus specifically on the Gilded Age and the presidents therein. Really interesting guys there, let me tell ya.

And I don't like Coolidge because I think he didn't do enough to curb speculation and to stop the criminal practices on Wall Street that would lead to the damn.
 
#2,202
#2,202
mrorange211 said:
The point you were making Huff was that historians only focus on leaders that had a major catastrophe to deal with. Simply not true, and if you had the unfortunate pleasure of being in some of my history courses you would understand that historians have literally written about anything. (I am not saying this out of arrogance so don't take it that way.) Actually, in the last 5 years there have been lots of historians to focus specifically on the Gilded Age and the presidents therein. Really interesting guys there, let me tell ya.

And I don't like Coolidge because I think he didn't do enough to curb speculation and to stop the criminal practices on Wall Street that would lead to the damn.
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Good thing I didn't say or even mean "only".

Focusing on gilded age POTUSs and ranking them highly are 2 different things. They got Cleveland at 17 and Hayes at 27 here. That's pretty good, I guess.

American Presidents: Viewer Survey Results

I don't think it's POTUS's job to curb speculation and if Wall Street misbehavior is the worst thing you can pin on him, I'll take that every ****ing time.
 
#2,203
#2,203
n_huffhines said:
Historians are generally dip****s in their analysis of POTUSs. If you didn't face a catastrophe, they generally dismiss you. If you caused a catastrophe, often times they like you. It makes no sense.

Historians are story-tellers and they don't like boring eras in history, even though that usually means things were good.
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I'm not going to argue semantics with you. As many can attest, it's a losing battle that cannot be won. Regardless, the implication was there: historians only focus on the big guys/gals of history which is truly ridiculous.

I don't like CC because he did not involve the govt more in the growing crisis of the economy in America during th 1920s. His failure to involve the govt more in the agricultural industry directly led, in my opinion, to 5000 banks closing and thousands of foreclosures on farms. In addition, his tax cuts led to larger disparity within the wealth distribution of the US and led to more production thus overproduction, both of which were direct causes of the damn. His foreign policy was no better. Oh look what a great idea the Kellogg-Briand Pact and the Dawes Plan were, as in they were both disasters that ignored the rise of Nazism or just outright help it. I like that CC did not run again because he believed that the office was too big to be occupied by one person for so long, but I am more happy he decided not to run because his response to the damn would have be even more disastrous than HH.
 
#2,204
#2,204
You made a straw man argument about my position and now you are trying to say it's semantics. "Only" and "generally" are two words different enough that they should not be semantically confused. I didn't use the word "focus", I said they "dismiss" (and the context is presidential rankings, not who they study or focus on). There are so many historians that many specialize in obscure topics and events. Of course some focus on the gilded age. I would never contest that point.

You are totally making my position into something it's not.

So CC directly caused the great depression, but you didn't include that in your initial critique? What should the govenment have done to meddle in agriculture? BTW, Canada was pretty laissez faire and had 0 bank failures.

He ignored the rise of nazism and that wasn't in your initial critique? I'd love for you to get a little more specific on that. What do you think he should have done?

‘Repeal’ of Glass-Steagall Irrelevant to Financial Crisis | Tom Woods
 
#2,205
#2,205
n_huffhines said:
You made a straw man argument about my position and now you are trying to say it's semantics. "Only" and "generally" are two words different enough that they should not be semantically confused. I didn't use the word "focus", I said they "dismiss" (and the context is presidential rankings, not who they study or focus on). There are so many historians that many specialize in obscure topics and events. Of course some focus on the gilded age. I would never contest that point.

You are totally making my position into something it's not.

So CC directly caused the great depression, but you didn't include that in your initial critique? What should the govenment have done to meddle in agriculture? BTW, Canada was pretty laissez faire and had 0 bank failures.

He ignored the rise of nazism and that wasn't in your initial critique? I'd love for you to get a little more specific on that. What do you think he should have done?

‘Repeal’ of Glass-Steagall Irrelevant to Financial Crisis | Tom Woods
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The 1st pp only proves my point. You win. I lose. I'm cool with that.

I didn't include them in my original critique of CC because I didn't understand why you would include him into your possible "greatest leaders in America" list, when he wasn't all that impressive. Differences in opinion concerning history are common and I have no prob in you believing he was something that he wasn't; that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to write a MA thesis here discussing why he sucked because I'm lazy. Once again, you win I lose. I'm cool with that.
 
#2,206
#2,206
Wait, because you didn't know why I like him, you weren't able to tell me the biggest reasons you dislike him?

Who is your favorite President?
 
#2,207
#2,207
Ironically, I actually do like some gilded age POTUSs. Hayes, Arthur, and Cleveland were arguably better presidents than Coolidge, IMO.

I'm about to blow your mind. I like Harding more than all of them, but he was a **** "leader".
 
#2,209
#2,209
I think it's obscene that FDR is a consensus top 5 president. He certainly set the precedent for the abuse of executive power we still have today. The Japanese internment camps are up there with Jackson's treatment of natives as the most morally detestable thing a president has ever done. This country was forever changed by what FDR did in terms of his social programs, and in most cases it wasn't for the better.

And of course someone with a libertarian bent will think highly of Coolidge. He was literally the epitome of hands-off governance. As far as whether such policies were the primary cause of the Depression, I think that's still a topic of contention among economists.
 
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#2,210
#2,210
As far as FDR goes, you won't hear any argument from me about him being terrible. I tend to agree on most issues, especially internment but I also think he was responsible for Pearl Harbor but nvm.

And good point about libertarian and CC. Very true as Huff definitely allies with that side. I see now why he likes him.
 
#2,211
#2,211
n_huffhines said:
Wait, because you didn't know why I like him, you weren't able to tell me the biggest reasons you dislike him?

Who is your favorite President?
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I can appreciate Huff's views on Silent Cal. He had all the power and did nothing. Just what we need now... AFTER some strong action to roll back regulations, spending, and a tax fix. We need 535+1 Silent Cals in Washington today. The more they do there, the less freedom we have here.
 
#2,213
#2,213
#2,214
#2,214
Oh what could have been if the press would have done their due diligence on the last AA POTUS candidate leading in the polls.
 
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#2,215
#2,215
hog88 said:
Oh what could have been if the press would have done their due diligence on the last AA POTUS candidate leading in the polls.
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We don't know for sure that the one in office now ever atteneded college, much less graduate.

Amazing that West Point keeps records of those that simply "apply" but the ivy leagues can't keep records of graduates.
 
#2,216
#2,216
hog88 said:
Oh what could have been if the press would have done their due diligence on the last AA POTUS candidate leading in the polls.
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I'd pay good money to be in some of your homes if Obama, on his last day in office, walked out into the Rose garden and admitted he was born in Kenya and faked his birth certificate.
 
#2,217
#2,217
Septic said:
I'd pay good money to be in some of your homes if Obama, on his last day in office, walked out into the Rose garden and admitted he was born in Kenya and faked his birth certificate.
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It would be boring at mine. But nice snappy, childish comeback.
 
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#2,218
#2,218
Septic said:
I'd pay good money to be in some of your homes if Obama, on his last day in office, walked out into the Rose garden and admitted he was born in Kenya and faked his birth certificate.
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Would you not be disappointed? All his legislation would be null and void.... He would be placed in prison.
 
#2,219
#2,219
Obsessed said:
We don't know for sure that the one in office now ever atteneded college, much less graduate.

Amazing that West Point keeps records of those that simply "apply" but the ivy leagues can't keep records of graduates.
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I'm glad the press sniffed this out, they all (politicians) lie but dam what a dumb ass thing to lie about. Carson might have thought he would get the same pass O got, who knows?
 
#2,221
#2,221
hog88 said:
I'm glad the press sniffed this out, they all (politicians) lie but dam what a dumb ass thing to lie about. Carson might have thought he would get the same pass O got, who knows?
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I don't know if it was a "straight" up lie as an exaggeration. I have no doubt that West Point officials told him he could attend with his grades.
 
#2,222
#2,222
hog88 said:
It would be boring at mine. But nice snappy, childish comeback.
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Would it be boring because you've already burned the couches and the mattresses? Also, thanks for recognizing my quick wit, sometimes I feel as if I'm not appreciated around here. :ermm:
 
#2,224
#2,224
Obsessed said:
Would you not be disappointed? All his legislation would be null and void.... He would be placed in prison.
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LOL - who cares what happens to him? I'd just want to see the Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island level of butt-hurt.
 
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