How many FRESHMEN break the starting lineup this season?

[LWSVOL]

Because Mahoney has proved if anything, that he makes lineman worse. He had 3 NFL lineman his first year at UT and they were not nearly as good as they were the previous year. Statistically we rushed okay... but we were supposed to be a dominant line.

Now to your point of coaching. I don't know too much about Debord's abilities, but i trust Butch in that he knows something that perhaps Debord can remedy with the line.

I'm confident in that Mizzous starting guys are more talented than our starters. Not just better fundamental guys, but better athletes in general.
They have one of the better lines in the SEC.

But LWSVOL is still undershooting the process of guys getting better -regardless of actual talent.
They were talented enough to be effective down the stretch. That means they can play and be effective over this season because they have gotten older, stronger and more experienced in the blocking scheme. We played a lot of guys too, so the competition will be much better than last year. They'll be improved.

okay, poor wording. they will be better just due to experience but the fact is they are not quality SEC. Would prefer better players..

 

[LWSVOL]

Jones believes in Mahoney. He has staked his career on Mahoney's ability. By most accounts, he had a very good OL coach at UT when he came who wanted to stay. Jones chose Mahoney.

If you can trust Jones... you can trust Mahoney.

And... I am absolutely confident that you are wrong.

You can argue as Darth did that they are Pinkel's guys while Jones depends on players someone else signed but you can't pretend that Pinkel fought off the best programs for most of the guys who'll start on that line.

Chappell was a 3* with mid or bottom tier Power 5 offers. Someone with his ranking and offer list wouldn't get any "booms" over in the recruiting forum.

McGovern was a 5.5 3* from Fargo. Rivals didn't list any other offers besides MU.

Boehm was an in-state 4*.

Rhodes was a 265 lb 3*.

Hall was a 3* that originally went to Ole Miss. He was 2nd string as a RS Fr in the spring but left after being passed by a true Fr in the fall.


Long story short. These guys aren't a good OL because they ooze natural talent. They're a good OL because they are well coached and play within their system.



He may or may not be wrong. My point is only that if you are wrong and he is right then you have to consider coaching as a contributing factor. The "leftovers" that everyone seems to handwring over had talent as recruits unless a bunch of people were wrong. Crowder's offer list was the weakest but Kerbyson and Jackson had opportunities to play for top tier programs.

I won't claim that they are championship caliber players. But they aren't bottom of the barrel players either... they have more talent than was demonstrated last year. Again, unless a bunch of programs were wrong.

that happens. frequently. Blair is a prime example. Marlin Lane another..

 

[johnrlansford]

Potentially, zero.

At the beginning of the season, anyway. By the end of the season, several could win their way into starts.

I do see 7 freshmen potentially in the two-deep: Dormady, Richmond and Jones on offense; KMac, Shy, Kirkland, and Bates on defense. Just none starting, not early on.

If I'm off by one, it'll be KMac. If I'm off by two, it'll be KMac and Kirkland. I seriously doubt I'd be off by 3.

Go Vols!

So are you saying that KMac and Kirkland will be the 2 who don't crack the 2 deep?

I would say that they both end up starting before the year end. MLB is short on reliable bodies and I wouldn't doubt if Kirkland starts by week 2 possible comes out of fall camp as the starter...KMac is a beast and better than Shy but Shy did get the spring to practice either way I would say KMac starts over Shy but I don't believe we have the (dependable) depth at DT to redshirt either.

The Oline men are who we need the most to step up I would think, if Richmond and Jones can play competitive minutes then we are golden...But if we don't need them too that is even better but atleast one of them will have to be a contributor to this OLine before season end I would say.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

So are you saying that KMac and Kirkland will be the 2 who don't crack the 2 deep?

No, saying if I'm off by one or two freshmen starting early in the season, KMac and Kirkland would be the one or two. Other than them, don't see any other freshman starting early on.

I honestly don't believe we'll see any freshman start the first game.

They're both definitely in the two-deep, from the start, barring off-field issues.

 

[Vol8188]

No, saying if I'm off by one or two freshmen starting early in the season, KMac and Kirkland would be the one or two. Other than them, don't see any other freshman starting early on.

I honestly don't believe we'll see any freshman start the first game.

They're both definitely in the two-deep, from the start, barring off-field issues.

When we are in our base 4-3, I'm interested in who the DE opposite Barnett will be. I think Maggitt will be rolled down as the SLB in a 9, but I want to know who will play the 5 technique.

We have a lot of options there. It could be a quicker DT, or one of our many DEs. Vickerson, Lewis, Phillips, Mixon, Vereen. We have a lot of options there.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

When we are in our base 4-3, I'm interested in who the DE opposite Barnett will be. I think Maggitt will be rolled down as the SLB in a 9, but I want to know who will play the 5 technique.

We have a lot of options there. It could be a quicker DT, or one of our many DEs. Vickerson, Lewis, Phillips, Mixon, Vereen. We have a lot of options there.

Yeah, we really are enjoying a wealth of options this year on the DLine. Which is awesome, because most of the best teams we face this year will likely challenge us in the box more than outside it. We match up well for our challenges, I think...as long as the MLB piece works out well.

 

[sjt18]

that happens. frequently. Blair is a prime example. Marlin Lane another..

To say it happens is fine and true. To say it happens 3 out of three among a team's current starters... does not occur frequently if at all.

Jones can replace these guys if he wants. He now has 2nd and 3rd year players who he recruited and has developed. If the 3 5th year seniors are truly as bad as you suggest then it should be a no brainer to replace them with guys who can gain experience for next year while performing just as well this year.

 

[LotteryPick]

When we are in our base 4-3, I'm interested in who the DE opposite Barnett will be. I think Maggitt will be rolled down as the SLB in a 9, but I want to know who will play the 5 technique.

We have a lot of options there. It could be a quicker DT, or one of our many DEs. Vickerson, Lewis, Phillips, Mixon, Vereen. We have a lot of options there.

I would think Vereen. JMO tho.

 

[Vol8188]

I would think Vereen. JMO tho.

I really like Vereen or Weatherd as pass rushers. But normally that strong side 5 is more of a run stopper. I think Vickers or Mixon.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I really like Vereen or Weatherd as pass rushers. But normally that strong side 5 is more of a run stopper. I think Vickers or Mixon.

So a front seven against the run like this maybe?

Barnett - O'Brien - Williams - Mixon
..................................................Maggitt
........JRM..................Jumper

 

[Vol8188]

So a front seven against the run like this maybe?

Barnett - O'Brien - Williams - Mixon
..................................................Maggitt
........JRM..................Jumper

Exactly.

 

[LittleVol]

Jones believes in Mahoney. He has staked his career on Mahoney's ability. By most accounts, he had a very good OL coach at UT when he came who wanted to stay. Jones chose Mahoney.

If you can trust Jones... you can trust Mahoney.

And... I am absolutely confident that you are wrong.

You can argue as Darth did that they are Pinkel's guys while Jones depends on players someone else signed but you can't pretend that Pinkel fought off the best programs for most of the guys who'll start on that line.

Chappell was a 3* with mid or bottom tier Power 5 offers. Someone with his ranking and offer list wouldn't get any "booms" over in the recruiting forum.

McGovern was a 5.5 3* from Fargo. Rivals didn't list any other offers besides MU.

Boehm was an in-state 4*.

Rhodes was a 265 lb 3*.

Hall was a 3* that originally went to Ole Miss. He was 2nd string as a RS Fr in the spring but left after being passed by a true Fr in the fall.


Long story short. These guys aren't a good OL because they ooze natural talent. They're a good OL because they are well coached and play within their system.



He may or may not be wrong. My point is only that if you are wrong and he is right then you have to consider coaching as a contributing factor. The "leftovers" that everyone seems to handwring over had talent as recruits unless a bunch of people were wrong. Crowder's offer list was the weakest but Kerbyson and Jackson had opportunities to play for top tier programs.

I won't claim that they are championship caliber players. But they aren't bottom of the barrel players either... they have more talent than was demonstrated last year. Again, unless a bunch of programs were wrong.

I'm not sure why you even mentioned star rankings. Aaron Douglas was 245 lbs TE and turned into Freshman All-American LT.
People are in Fargo just like Miami...
Again, i'm not sure why you mentioned stars.

They are about useless when it comes to lineman.

Mizzou has been taking underrated lineman and turning them into good players for a while. No I'm not wrong. They are more talented and better coached.
It's not JUST about a bunch of programs being off, it's more about Mizzou and how they get their guys to believe in what they do. Remember better coaching and physical development also leads to better football skill (talent).

Mizzou does an outstanding job of building explosion and power in every level of their team. Their secondary is as good as any in the conference. Yes even ours. Their WR's are as fast and athletic in any in the division. (Blair, Richard, Brown, Wingo, Moore are all SEC players. Just young... which will matter early on
-sidetacked, sorry,,,

I do trust Butch- are you really saying that because of that Mahoney is better than Pittman?? Butch gets things wrong too.

And again, as far as coaching.... our lineman did improve, that whole statement you made at the end there had no place.
Here is why... you in fact are implying MIzzou lineman were mostly "leftover" type players. Yet their coached up (talent improvement) You say talent wise our line is equal or better to MIzz, even though LWSVOL thinks they might not get better. He wants better lineman. I'm saying we do have better lineman than last year even though they are the same lineman...because as you mentioned coaching.
Basically you said I missed you point when in fact I was reinforcing yours...

 

[johnrlansford]

No, saying if I'm off by one or two freshmen starting early in the season, KMac and Kirkland would be the one or two. Other than them, don't see any other freshman starting early on.

I honestly don't believe we'll see any freshman start the first game.

They're both definitely in the two-deep, from the start, barring off-field issues.

ok I thought so but I wanted to clarify...they both could be starting week one IMO. atleast by week 3-4. They are both going to be game-changers before leaving UT.

 

[sjt18]

I'm not sure why you even mentioned star rankings.

Because generally speaking they help determine a recruit's raw talent along with offer lists.

Aaron Douglas was 245 lbs TE and turned into Freshman All-American LT.

He was a RS Fr and destined for LT from the time he committed. By the time he played, he was in the 280's.

People are in Fargo just like Miami...

Well, aside from the fact that they really and truly aren't... their HSFB is radically different as well. Miami has far more people and far more great athletes. That makes the competition better before you even consider that they then play teams from across FL.

Again, i'm not sure why you mentioned stars.

Another reason beyond above is that there are those who declare that UT just doesn't have enough talent and will point to a lack of 4/5* players to help justify that claim.

They are about useless when it comes to lineman.

Mizzou has been taking underrated lineman and turning them into good players for a while. No I'm not wrong. They are more talented and better coached.

Yeah. You can keep typing responses but you are wrong and will continue to be wrong.

According to this site, MU has had 3 OL's drafted since 2000: Missouri Drafted Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com

That should tell you that they are well coached and understand their scheme but DO NOT possess elite talent.

Remember better coaching and physical development also leads to better football skill (talent).

And there's one problem. Talent is innate. Skill and development are not innate. Skill and development optimize talent... they don't create it.

This is also why Mizzou does so poorly when they run up against programs from the West who not only have very good development and coaching but also superior talent... to develop... and coach up.

I do trust Butch- are you really saying that because of that Mahoney is better than Pittman?? Butch gets things wrong too.

Butch is responsible for hiring effective assistants. He owns that. It is one of the biggest things a HC does. If you do not believe that he does that well then you have no good reason to "trust" him.

And again, as far as coaching.... our lineman did improve, that whole statement you made at the end there had no place.

How so? I agree the OL's improved. I'm arguing they can improve a good bit more.

Here is why... you in fact are implying MIzzou lineman were mostly "leftover" type players. Yet their coached up (talent improvement) You say talent wise our line is equal or better to MIzz, even though LWSVOL thinks they might not get better. He wants better lineman.

So I was attempting to make a positive argument in support of UT's OL's. I think you would normally agree with positive arguments. But you've found a way to turn it into something negative? You seem to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

FWIW, I want the best players UT can possibly get at every position. So I certainly want to seen better OL's as well.

I'm saying we do have better lineman than last year even though they are the same lineman...because as you mentioned coaching.
Basically you said I missed you point when in fact I was reinforcing yours...

OK. Sorry about that. I tangled this up.

We disagree on MU but otherwise hopefully you and I agree that there was untapped potential carried over.

If nothing else.... and the 3 in question only marginally improve... UT STILL should see a significant improvement just through improvement in Robertson and whoever wins RT.

 

[LWSVOL]

To say it happens is fine and true. To say it happens 3 out of three among a team's current starters... does not occur frequently if at all.

Jones can replace these guys if he wants. He now has 2nd and 3rd year players who he recruited and has developed. If the 3 5th year seniors are truly as bad as you suggest then it should be a no brainer to replace them with guys who can gain experience for next year while performing just as well this year.

not sure about that. As Jones has said, OL is a developmental position. I don't think he has those guys developed yet or some may end up misses.

Weisman is a junior but he hasn't been able to forge past anyone, including Crowder. They tried to push him but he is behind MC at best.

Thomas was tried last year, not ready. Will he be this year? They are hopeful but haven't heard a surge. Again being pushed at center

Blair can't beat out a guard at LT.

Sanders hasn't made any move yet. Perhaps he needs that 3rd year of development.

Kendrick of course has been given RT

Robertson is a stud for a sophomore.

Raulerson redshirted last year. He is definitely not ready. Might not ever get ready if what I've heard is accurate.

That is it. Everyone else is a freshman. They are just headed into first year of development.

So who did you have in mind? I don't think I missed anyone.

So not sure who you think should be ready to move into starting lineup except those I listed.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Well, there's Mosley, if they can get him sobered up, heh. Honstly, I don't know where he fits in all this...is he underperforming a la Blair at this point?

And LWS, what do you know about Thomas Edwards? He's the only non-starter, non-freshman that you didn't name, I think. RS sophomore, so if he's going to make a move, it ought to be this year probably, I'd think....

 

[LWSVOL]

Well, there's Mosley, if they can get him sobered up, heh. Honstly, I don't know where he fits in all this...is he underperforming a la Blair at this point?

And LWS, what do you know about Thomas Edwards? He's the only non-starter, non-freshman that you didn't name, I think. RS sophomore, so if he's going to make a move, it ought to be this year probably, I'd think....

Mosley is a LONG way from being ready. He has had little work at all and has not even been close to 100%, probably more like 70% capable. I don't think he has had much work on OL yet.

Edwards is no help. Of course, no one at this time last year felt Gilliam would be anywhere near getting reps. Maybe Edwards can help but his name has not come up at all in conversations.

 

[VOLinNC]

Anybody else think that Corey Vereen gets No Respect?!?!?

 

[Vol8188]

Anybody else think that Corey Vereen gets No Respect?!?!?

I've said before that him and Lewis could start for half of the SEC.

 

[Kristy*]

Anybody else think that Corey Vereen gets No Respect?!?!?

I respect him! His freshman campaign was quite impressive. He got lost in the shuffle last year and dealt with some injuries. I'd love to see him opposite Barnett a lot in the 2 OLB sets. His pass rush is mean.

 

[VOLinNC]

I respect him! His freshman campaign was quite impressive. He got lost in the shuffle last year and dealt with some injuries. I'd love to see him opposite Barnett a lot in the 2 OLB sets. His pass rush is mean.

Picture an all out blitz with DB and Vereen coming off the edges along with Maggitt and Weatherd coming in from each OLB position! That should be Nasty!

 

[Kristy*]

Picture an all out blitz with DB and Vereen coming off the edges along with Maggitt and Weatherd coming in from each OLB position! That should be Nasty!

Word. Just hope if they do, our MLB is disciplined. I really like Bates at OLB. I hope he gets the majority the reps there. I know Weatherd came in late last summer, but he never got out of his 'strictly pass rush' role. I hope he's able to develop into the complete package this year. He's got the quickness and athleticism.

 

[VOLinNC]

Word. Just hope if they do, our MLB is disciplined. I really like Bates at OLB. I hope he gets the majority the reps there. I know Weatherd came in late last summer, but he never got out of his 'strictly pass rush' role. I hope he's able to develop into the complete package this year. He's got the quickness and athleticism.

Agree. Also Darrell Taylor is supposed to be a freak of a pass rusher. I really think Bates may be our MLB he's about 230-240 lb's and really fast. I think he could shine there.

 

[Kristy*]

Agree. Also Darrell Taylor is supposed to be a freak of a pass rusher. I really think Bates may be our MLB he's about 230-240 lb's and really fast. I think he could shine there.

In addition to Taylor, Phillips looked like a Barnett 2.0 late in his recruitment.

Bates has the mentality, size, and quickness to play either Out or In. You may be right. But I'm still hoping Kirkland holds down the MLB role for a few years. JRM may be hard to push out of a spot also. Maybe just a good 3 man rotation between the 2 spots - Kirkland, Bates, JRM.

 

[VOLinNC]

In addition to Taylor, Phillips looked like a Barnett 2.0 late in his recruitment.

Bates has the mentality, size, and quickness to play either Out or In. You may be right. But I'm still hoping Kirkland holds down the MLB role for a few years. JRM may be hard to push out of a spot also. Maybe just a good 3 man rotation between the 2 spots - Kirkland, Bates, JRM.

I know it can change really quickly but our LB corp. is insane! It's kind of a shame that we only use 2 so much.

We could run a pass defending set of LBs with some crazy speed and coverage skills if we needed to consisting of EL. Berry, McDowell and Bates.