Ukraine Protests

[CSpindizzy]

Damn, you know that the Russians have had a naval base in Crimea and the border between Ukraine and Russia is porous. There are plenty of places they could get the weapons.

I've not argued about the porous border. I've argued how the regular Rooskie 'freelancer' to use the term comes up with top of the line equipment. Russia has to hand this over. And Russia would not just hand over a Tornado-S system to some basic mechanic from Rostov. Like I've said, this has the Russian government's fingerprints all over it. Simple. Seeing you talk about Russian naval base and open borders....you are slowly seeing the light.

Look, lets not play. I'm talking about the events that happened around the 21st-22nd of February where the govt was overthrown and the protesters were fired upon. That Nuland/Pyatt tape was before then. I'm not talking about the demonstrations in the months leading up to those events, and you know that.

You and Pacer are talking about a coup. Again, Yatsenyuk was already in play in a discussion by Yanukovich. The Nuland call was in regard to that ongoing discussion. Yanukovich was looking at options for PM. The US was merely stating they liked him and he was the most sensible one. The choices at the time as far as popular opinion were Yat or Klischko. Yanukovich, the US, and even Russia were behind the notion of Yatsenyuk being the recommendation. You and Pacer have implied the call was an indication of a coup. Facts and chronology indicate otherwise. Full context dispels the tinfoil notion we were organizing a coup. Again, if we were, Yanukovich was involved in that with us. Makes no sense.

The protests (before the Maidan Massacre) were forcing Yanukovich to have to calm the situation by agreeing to put Yats in some kind of position of power. You make it as though Yanukovich just woke up one day and had a case of random altruism or generosity. No, he was being forced to do so under the conditions.

Forcing him to calm the situation? Let's examine why the situation was not calm and who was the reason. Why did the protests occur months before? Yanukovich lied about EU and constitutional reforms that got him elected. People began assembling in larger numbers. People were beaten and detained. Demonstration leaders were jailed and not tried according to law. Some went missing. Later some were killed. The Berkut began using more violence against the people. Assemblies were banned in violation of law. More people protested. And it became a downward spiral. Who initiated this? Did the US and CIA cause Yanukovich to do all this? Did they cause the Berkut to go bat crazy on their own people? Viktor put himself in this position. And somehow I am supposed to feel sorry for him being put in a position to recommend his opponent to PM. He was forced to act on this because of events of his making. Even while making this gesture he did not call off the Berkut. They stepped it up and used guns. Violence got worse. And within two and a half weeks of this offer things went really downhill. But again, somehow Nuland was behind events that were solely in the hands of the president of Ukraine and he did nothing more to stop it. He definitely made it worse.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I don't believe this! I've seen reports ghat there were enough soviet era weapons to support 2 million men.

I'll find the link....if not tonight, tomorrow.

Strange since the Ukrainian army has very little to arm their current forces. And current size is under 100K. Add to the fact that CFE treaties have ceilings on armaments. Ukraine was under several arms control treaties. Not to mention the whole Lugar/Obama debacle of pushing Ukraine to destroy armaments as well.

Lugar and Obama Urge Destruction of Conventional Weapons Stockpiles

“Vast stocks of conventional munitions and military supplies have accumulated in Ukraine. Some of this stockpile dates from World War I and II, yet most dates from Cold War buildup and the stocks left behind by Soviet withdrawals from East Germany, the Czech Republic, Hungry and Poland,”

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

And don't start in on that nonsense about a nuclear first strike again. I hate to prove you wrong each time you do.

When have you proved me wrong yet?

 

[Grand Vol]

When have you proved me wrong yet?

<sigh>

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Your point? The foreign fighters on behalf of government forces pales in comparison to Russian nationals fighting with the terrorists.

Uhhh, you sure about that?

LiveLeak.com - Croatian volunteers at war within the biggest neo nazi ukrainian regiment "Azov"

Croatia to supply 14 helicopters to Ukrainian Air Forces

 

[CSpindizzy]

Interesting.

Nice to have a boots on the ground (or were boots on the ground) perspective like you've had.

Just trying to call it as I saw it. Like I said, I was there in this region well before all this happened. I have great friends who are Russians, who are ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and Ukrainian. This is an area that has been screwed over from events in history and the legacy remains. Ukraine is just one of the little guys that have been stomped on by various representations of Russian government. Until the authoritarian types coming from the east get this out of their system, the Baltics and Ukraine will see this constantly. I hate it for the people. There's a lot of poor people but they are wonderful. Seeing what's happened to towns I've spent time in hurts. Seeing the spin and lies makes it worse. Friends and family that I know who spent time in Afghanistan and Iraq have similar stories. So goes the world we live in I guess.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The main point he is trying to make is that Soviet era weapons suck.

The AK-47 is the most reliable weapon on the planet. There's a reason why it has been used in nearly every revolution and war on this planet in the last 60+ years.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Uhhh, you sure about that?

LiveLeak.com - Croatian volunteers at war within the biggest neo nazi ukrainian regiment "Azov"

Croatia to supply 14 helicopters to Ukrainian Air Forces

So we have a Liveleak story with a handful of people we assume are all Croatians and you guys don't believe the hundreds of other stories and pictures about Russians? And somehow this handful is supposed to equate to hundreds of pieces of heavy equipment and a few thousand fighters from next door?

 

[CSpindizzy]

The AK-47 is the most reliable weapon on the planet. There's a reason why it has been used in nearly every revolution and war on this planet in the last 60+ years.

Seeing how the stockpiles are not all AK-47's (note the link I showed even had legacy weapons from WWI) you have to conclude not all is decent quality and working order. Not to mention enough to arm the soldiers they have. AK's don't go up well against T-72B3's or GRAD rockets fired from afar either.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

So we have a Liveleak story with a handful of people we assume are all Croatians and you guys don't believe the hundreds of other stories and pictures about Russians? And somehow this handful is supposed to equate to hundreds of pieces of heavy equipment and a few thousand fighters from next door?

Damn man, here is more proof then.

EU's Tusk: No proof Europeans fighting in Ukraine, refutes Croatia's claim

Earlier this week, Croatia’s top diplomat acknowledged the presence of volunteers from his country in the conflict zone in Ukraine.

“As far as I know, there are Croatian soldiers in Ukraine who have joined the Ukrainian army,” Croatia’s Foreign Minister Vesna Pusic told the media in the capital, Zagreb, on Wednesday.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcqlCDEFSb4[/youtube]

 

[volprof]

The AK-47 is the most reliable weapon on the planet. There's a reason why it has been used in nearly every revolution and war on this planet in the last 60+ years.

Yes, I agree. Russia has imported war to nearly every corner of this planet.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Damn man, here is more proof then.

EU's Tusk: No proof Europeans fighting in Ukraine, refutes Croatia's claim

Didn't deny Croatians were serving. Just saying it's funny when an article about a handful of guys is suddenly supposed to negate the amounts of men and materiel from Russia. An old retired banker and a few Croatians I guess makes the Russians being there with their government's backing all better maybe. I don't know.

 

[volprof]

Damn man, here is more proof then.

EU's Tusk: No proof Europeans fighting in Ukraine, refutes Croatia's claim



[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcqlCDEFSb4[/youtube]

Ukraine Reconquista?

Are you high?

 

[volprof]

The AK-47 is the most reliable weapon on the planet. There's a reason why it has been used in nearly every revolution and war on this planet in the last 60+ years.

I bet when you posted this, you weren't quite anticipating the fallout.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Hey look, there's even some stories of other Europeans joining the fighting with the Eastern Ukrainians.

‘United Continent’: European volunteers fighting Kiev troops in Eastern Ukraine

'Spreading the truth': Spanish volunteers join fight against Kiev in E. Ukraine (VIDEO)

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Didn't deny Croatians were serving. Just saying it's funny when an article about a handful of guys is suddenly supposed to negate the amounts of men and materiel from Russia. An old retired banker and a few Croatians I guess makes the Russians being there with their government's backing all better maybe. I don't know.

They may not be just Russian volunteers and Eastern Ukrainians over there. That entire region is attracting fighters from all over Europe and the Former Soviet Union (possibly).

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Didn't deny Croatians were serving. Just saying it's funny when an article about a handful of guys is suddenly supposed to negate the amounts of men and materiel from Russia. An old retired banker and a few Croatians I guess makes the Russians being there with their government's backing all better maybe. I don't know.

You haven't shown any evidence of or to what scale Russia is involved. Again, that is where we are going to disagree. You are painting a picture as though Russia is arming these guys with the latest equipment and backing that up with tanks, convoys and other heavy materials. Just show us the evidence of this. meanwhile, whenever we make a claim, we actually offer you videos or quotes of what is said or photos. Why is the burden of proof on our side of the argument, yet all you have to offer is speculation and accusations with no proof?

When you say "the amount of men and material", you know exactly what you are doing... trying to paint a picture that there is a large scale influx of support. Again, I'm not saying that Russia is not involved, but unless you provide some evidence, I can't go as far as you are wanting to go to say that they are just dumping arms and tanks and such all over the border when it would be extremely easy to prove such claims, yet we get nothing.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Your point? The foreign fighters on behalf of government forces pales in comparison to Russian nationals fighting with the terrorists.

So they're terrorists now? Not separatists?

 

[CSpindizzy]

They may not be just Russian volunteers and Eastern Ukrainians over there. That entire region is attracting fighters from all over Europe and the Former Soviet Union (possibly).

Still looking for those fighters from other countries with high tech weapons from their home countries. Haven't seen European rockets, artillery, tanks, etc. in Ukraine. Not seeing YouTube videos of major convoys of German, French, British or even Polish equipment pouring across the border.

 

[Burhead]

They may not be just Russian volunteers and Eastern Ukrainians over there. That entire region is attracting fighters from all over Europe and the Former Soviet Union (possibly).

Never denied there wasn't other nationalities fighting with government forces. Foreigners on the side of the government isn't anyway comparable to the amount of Russians fighting with against them.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Not seeing YouTube videos of major convoys of German, French, British or even Polish equipment pouring across the border.

I never made the claim of convoys coming into Ukraine. That would be you.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Never denied there wasn't other nationalities fighting with government forces. Foreigners on the side of the government isn't anyway comparable to the amount of Russians fighting with against them.

Again, your are painting a picture of a large scale Russian invasion with no proof. How do you know just how many of the fighters in E. Ukraine are Russian vs any other country or region?

You all challenge us with proof and evidence and we deliver. You all make claims with no evidence and we are supposed to just accept it. You guys operate with no burden of proof to support the claims you are trying to make.

I'm not saying that there isn't Russian involvement, but we are going to disagree about the scale and magnitude of this assistance until you proved proof. Until then, the ugly perception right now is that the Ukrainian Army (with the help of the US and other European soldiers) got their heads handed to them by a coalition of Eastern Ukrainian, Russian, and other ex-pat fighters.

 

[CSpindizzy]

You haven't shown any evidence of or to what scale Russia is involved. Again, that is where we are going to disagree. You are painting a picture as though Russia is arming these guys with the latest equipment and backing that up with tanks, convoys and other heavy materials. Just show us the evidence of this. meanwhile, whenever we make a claim, we actually offer you videos or quotes of what is said or photos. Why is the burden of proof on our side of the argument, yet all you have to offer is speculation and accusations with no proof?

When you say "the amount of men and material", you know exactly what you are doing... trying to paint a picture that there is a large scale influx of support. Again, I'm not saying that Russia is not involved, but unless you provide some evidence, I can't go as far as you are wanting to go to say that they are just dumping arms and tanks and such all over the border when it would be extremely easy to prove such claims, yet we get nothing.

Show you the evidence? Russia signed off on Minsk II that Tornado-S launchers would be removed. Tornado-S is a Russian only, not for export product. Favored Russian troll Graham Phillips has released videos that show T-72B3's. The videos by a Russian troll are hard to fake and deny. The ignorant dunce kept saying this was a T-72M when it is very easy to tell the difference. There are also numerous other videos showing the same model tanks. Unless Russians are involved in the conspiracy can you keep denying this? I've asked how such high tech non-export materiel makes its way across the border. According to the denial twins every Russian household has their own top of the line tank in their driveway. Or its just readily available to pick one up and drive hundreds of miles across a border. Vlad doesn't seem to deny this and does not seem to be concerned.

Proof has been repeatedly offered. If you refuse to watch it I cannot help you. I post links and ask questions. I can't get answers. All I get is denial and more RT nonsense. At least I've bothered to respond to all yours and Pacer's links...however off base they are. You keep saying I'm not offering proof. Several of us have and keep saying we have. Guess we keep doing this circular dance. But for giggles let's revisit the whole T-72B3 journey.

https://ukrstream.tv/en/videos/pro_...e_only_in_the_russian_federation#.VOVbWPnF9qU

This again is good ol' Russia lovin' Lord Haw Haw Graham Phillips in his video with several T-72B3's in the background. These are easily identifiable. Not only have these shown up on Graham's videos (thanks troll for helping prove Russian involvement), but they have shown up on others as well. Google "T-72B3 Ukraine" and a few videos show up. They've been in theater long enough to not only see some get captured by Ukraine but Ukraine lose those to battle or recapture by the Russians. And for the umpteenth time these are newer tanks in the Russian army. These have not been exported. Video evidence and we wonder how they got there....

 

[Velo Vol]

So they're terrorists now? Not separatists?

Certainly aren't freedom fighters.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Show you the evidence? Russia signed off on Minsk II that Tornado-S launchers would be removed. Tornado-S is a Russian only, not for export product. Favored Russian troll Graham Phillips has released videos that show T-72B3's. The videos by a Russian troll are hard to fake and deny. The ignorant dunce kept saying this was a T-72M when it is very easy to tell the difference. There are also numerous other videos showing the same model tanks. Unless Russians are involved in the conspiracy can you keep denying this? I've asked how such high tech non-export materiel makes its way across the border. According to the denial twins every Russian household has their own top of the line tank in their driveway. Or its just readily available to pick one up and drive hundreds of miles across a border. Vlad doesn't seem to deny this and does not seem to be concerned.

Proof has been repeatedly offered. If you refuse to watch it I cannot help you. I post links and ask questions. I can't get answers. All I get is denial and more RT nonsense. At least I've bothered to respond to all yours and Pacer's links...however off base they are. You keep saying I'm not offering proof. Several of us have and keep saying we have. Guess we keep doing this circular dance. But for giggles let's revisit the whole T-72B3 journey.

https://ukrstream.tv/en/videos/pro_...e_only_in_the_russian_federation#.VOVbWPnF9qU

This again is good ol' Russia lovin' Lord Haw Haw Graham Phillips in his video with several T-72B3's in the background. These are easily identifiable. Not only have these shown up on Graham's videos (thanks troll for helping prove Russian involvement), but they have shown up on others as well. Google "T-72B3 Ukraine" and a few videos show up. They've been in theater long enough to not only see some get captured by Ukraine but Ukraine lose those to battle or recapture by the Russians. And for the umpteenth time these are newer tanks in the Russian army. These have not been exported. Video evidence and we wonder how they got there....

2 questions:

1. What is the difference in the T-72B3 and the T-72M? You seem to imply that there is an obvious difference in the two models that this guy Graham Phillips didn't recognize.

2. From everything I'm seeing so far, the T-72 series of tanks were used by all of the Warsaw pact nations, including Ukraine. Why couldn't these be tanks left in Ukraine from that era... or recently? I say "recently" because I wondering if it is possible that Yanukovich could have gotten some of these tanks from Russia during his presidency within the last few years.