Ukraine Protests

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#7,126
#7,126
Rasputin_Vol said:
Do the Ukrainians have this type of munition normally or would they have had to get it from an outside entity?
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Per most military websites and wikipedia the Ukrainians have both the OTR-21 Tochka and Luna-M tactical missiles both of which are Soviet in origin. There have been unconfirmed reports of Ukrainian forces using the Tochka early on in the conflict. They also have the Smerch (300mm) and Uragan (220mm) MLR systems as well. :hi:
 
#7,127
#7,127
Rasputin_Vol said:
Do the Ukrainians have this type of munition normally or would they have had to get it from an outside entity?
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I would think Ukraine would have them in their arsenal (think sadaam's SCUD or FROG missiles). The thing is those were notoriously inaccurate. I don't know if they have anything newer.
 
#7,128
#7,128
Burhead said:
Per most military websites and wikipedia the Ukrainians have both the OTR-21 Tochka and Luna-M tactical missiles both of which are Soviet in origin. There have been unconfirmed reports of Ukrainian forces using the Tochka early on in the conflict. They also have the Smerch (300mm) and Uragan (220mm) MLR systems as well. :hi:
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That wasn't an MLR, but maybe one of the others. Do you know their accuracy?
 
#7,130
#7,130
Burhead said:
I haven't discovered which variant of the Tochka the Ukrainians have. The A has an CEP of about 150m, B less than 95m, and the C version 70m.
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Sounds like a lucky shot then. Admittedly, this topic is outside my area of expertise however.
 
#7,131
#7,131
red butler said:
Sounds like a lucky shot then. Admittedly, this topic is outside my area of expertise however.
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Same here. Seeing social media accounts saying Ukrainian artillery could have hit a chemical factory in the city. So far RUMINT claims it was either an ammo depot or chemical factory.
 
#7,132
#7,132
B9W8ef1IYAAWJN3.jpg
 
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#7,133
#7,133
Velo Vol said:
B9W8ef1IYAAWJN3.jpg
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:popcorn:


According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4. Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, "if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.
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#7,134
#7,134
Sarkozy: Crimea cannot be blamed for joining Russia

“We are part of a common civilization with Russia,” said Sarkozy, speaking on Saturday at the congress of the Union for a Popular Movement Party (UMP), which the former president heads.

“The interests of the Americans with the Russians are not the interests of Europe and Russia,” he said adding that “we do not want the revival of a Cold War between Europe and Russia.”
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#7,135
#7,135
Grand Vol said:
Which is why I keep telling you two twits to study history more.
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Lets listen to a group of people that may be more aware than you or most anyone else in here...

The Germans, who have led Europe’s diplomatic response to the Ukraine crisis, say arming Ukraine with more advanced weapons would compel Russia to answer with better weapons of its own, causing more bloodshed and potentially sparking open warfare between Russia and Ukraine.

Comments by U.S. senators in Munich fueled the appearance of a trans-Atlantic split, with Sen. Lindsey Graham (R., S.C.) suggesting the Germans were turning their backs on “a struggling democracy.”

The criticism, at an annual gathering including many world leaders and diplomats, prompted German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, to reply: “Perhaps we are so insistent because we know the region a bit.”
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#7,137
#7,137
Rasputin_Vol said:
Lets listen to a group of people that may be more aware than you or most anyone else in here...
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It's really cute when you don't add in the link so others can check your facts...

West Races to Defuse Ukraine Crisis - WSJ

Nonetheless, officials on both sides moved to play down any divisions in the alliance. While Ms. Merkel has taken a tough line in public, alliance officials said she has told Mr. Putin privately that she won’t oppose the U.S. plan if Mr. Obama opts to send weapons to Ukraine.
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#7,138
#7,138
Rasputin_Vol said:
Wow... how many average Joes were drafted and sent off to die in these wars?

really? i was clearly talking about the causation of the wars, not how they were fought. we could go all day into that, but the start and original outcome. how many started and ended for the bettering of American lives?

I get accused of American exceptionalism, yet I come here and read this Doomsday scenario where you think the world would turn to a dystopian dumpster fire. I think the world would be fine if we got out of the way in most of these areas. (Iraq, we pull out too fast and look at what we have now. one point does not an argument make but it is the most recent)


This last paragraph has so much fail in it, it would take me a while to break it down. Let me start be saying that you got it right in saying that the Founders did nothing for the rights of women and were not able to solve the black issue after much debate. Having said that, however, everything else you posted in this paragraph is a distortion or a lie.(really, the tax system was enough and well loved by the freedom fighting Americans? I fully believe the Founding Fathers were some of the smartest men ever to run this country and they made the best system of government out there, but to pretend it was/is perfect and doesn't need major revisions and that the stick your head in the sand outlook never needed to be changed is childish. different times, you have to remember battles were still being fought in wars that had ended, information did not move fast at all. the electoral system was great for then because people would have no idea who the eff they were voting for, now a days??? maybe you have gone into specifics later and i will save more break down until that point
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.
 
#7,139
#7,139
Pacer92 said:
You know, you guys kill me with the constant belittling of Ras and myself. He's right though, you guys are living in the 60's with the Cold War mentality. America is on the right side and anyone who opposes us is on the wrong side.

Why is it that the European leaders that are closest and effected most by this crisis, looking for a diplomatic solution and opposing arming Kiev, while WE, not directly threatened in any form, sans the dollar, are pushing for weapons and war.

It looks to me as we do not want a peaceful solution...why is that?

As a matter of fact, when was the last time we negotiated peace with a country that failed to toe the line?
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really? you think the dollar is going to be affected by the creation of a 'semi-autonomous donbas'? we have bigger fish to fry on that front, if we were in the mood for sea food.

peace was never a real option. regrettable but true. too many foreign interests, both sides, for it to do anything but grind on.

not exactly sure i follow the last question. was this a country we were at war with? and toe which line? the lines usually come after peace.
 
#7,140
#7,140
Rasputin_Vol said:
And again, why are we agitating a nuclear power that is half a world away by playing a proxy war with their neighbor?

Wisdom is the application of knowledge. He seem to have some knowledge, but you are lacking the practical application of that knowledge when it comes to this situation... partially due to emotional roadblocks. Once you side step the emotion of all of this, logic and reason will kick in, and you will free yourself from your Western imperialist mental slavery. :loco:
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yes but its nukes, and ours, are not half a world away. Alaska says hi by the way. Russia is the only country spouting nuclear talk, I haven't heard a bleep out of anyone else about the use of nukes.
 
#7,142
#7,142
red butler said:
The Mexican war covers all of Latin America, Mogadishu covers Africa, we fought japan in WWII covering Asia, and Desert Storm justifies all Arab countries.
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red, you are better than this. in WWII we fought in most of the southeast pacific, china, india and few other of those southeastern countries. then theres SK and Vietnam, though losses we fought there too
 
#7,144
#7,144
LouderVol said:
yes but its nukes, and ours, are not half a world away. Alaska says hi by the way. Russia is the only country spouting nuclear talk, I haven't heard a bleep out of anyone else about the use of nukes.
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Yep, and I really think they are sincerely thinking about using them. I've said it before: our enemies might never have the ability again to make the power plays on the global stage that they have right now. We have the weakest leader ever in the history of the U.S. and we would have a hard time taking on Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran right now. Those countries are very aware of that and are working together.
 
#7,148
#7,148
LouderVol said:
red, you are better than this. in WWII we fought in most of the southeast pacific, china, india and few other of those southeastern countries. then theres SK and Vietnam, though losses we fought there too
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You're right. It was a poor effort on my part. I will try to do better next time. To be fair though, the quality of my posts tend to deteriorate as it gets later in the night. I'm usually pretty impaired by the time that post was time stamped.
 
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