Ukraine Protests

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#7,102
#7,102
Grand Vol said:
Funny, because you tend to bring it on yourself. You have this warped perception that I happen to be stuck in a 1950s (we were beginning detente in the 60s) mentality about Russia. I've met and worked with Russians and generally have a great respect for them. And historically believe they are a good people that have been through things this nation couldn't even possibly fathom.

But what you fail to comprehend and realize is what's happening in the Eastern Ukraine is straight out of the Cold War playbook. A proxy war. This isn't about NATO expansion or threatening Russia. This is about control of the buffer zone Russia wants and craves since historically, and I know you and Ras have no idea about it, Russia keeps getting invaded and invaded and invaded again. They feel they need that buffer zone in order to keep themselves safe. So they believe supporting the rebels will keep Mother Russia safer since there will be a gap between the pro-west Ukraine and traditional Russian borders.

Which is why I keep telling you two twits to study history more. In order to know what is going on over there, you have to understand the Russian mentality. And in turn know Russians look to the past to avoid the same mistakes. Which neither of you do at all. Do you honestly think the Warsaw Pact was to deter NATO? Really? In a continent that had been ravaged by two world wars in a span of 30 years, do you honestly think anyone wanted more conflict? No, the Soviet Union created it as a buffer zone to keep others out. They knew the further they could keep any foreign powers away from their borders, the safer they would be. And this is what's happening right now. Right out of Cold War 101.

And I truly find it sad you are either not intelligent enough or too stubborn to study history to know why this is all going on.
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So, knowing that they want a buffer zone, why does the US agitate a problem with Russia by using subversive and seditious activities in countries that are in Russia's buffer zone, and then act surprised when Russia feels threatened?

Georgia, The Baltics, Bulgaria and Ukraine are not Havana 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Why in the world are we meddling over there when the Europeans are the ones that need to worry about it?
 
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#7,103
#7,103
Velo Vol said:
The comical part about this line is that people saying it then turn around and say Russia "has no choice" but to respond because NATO (yes, Cold War NATO) is at its borders.

Edit: See Grand Vol above.
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I see Grand Vol... he mentioned an entity (The Warsaw Pact) that doesn't exist anymore. NATO, on the other hand, is still around, meaning, the Cold War was won 25 years ago... why do we feel the need to continue fighting it?
 
#7,104
#7,104
Rasputin_Vol said:
So, knowing that they want a buffer zone, why does the US agitate a problem with Russia by using subversive and seditious activities in countries that are in Russia's buffer zone, and then act surprised when Russia feels threatened?

Georgia, The Baltics, Bulgaria and Ukraine are not Havana 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Why in the world are we meddling over there when the Europeans are the ones that need to worry about it?
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Again I reiterate my question, why does Russia reserve the right to meddle in the affairs of it's former territories?
 
#7,105
#7,105
Grand Vol said:
Then you should be using it in this situation. And you darn well should know that if you've been invaded as many times as the Russians have over history, you're gonna want some distance between you and anyone that's not a satellite of yours or that you occupy (see the Warsaw Pact). And furthermore, if you did any studying in history, you'd know Putin is a straight up Cold Warrior at heart. And that's the game he's playing right now. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of idiots trying to play a different game and getting their ass handed to them at every turn. Putin understands power as it was during the Cold War. And knows the proper time to back off just like his predecessors did. And we haven't pushed him to that point yet because our own leadership is naive in world affairs and hasn't the first clue on how to respond to this situation.

And for the record, I'm not a big Kerry or McCain fan personally.
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And again, why are we agitating a nuclear power that is half a world away by playing a proxy war with their neighbor?

Wisdom is the application of knowledge. He seem to have some knowledge, but you are lacking the practical application of that knowledge when it comes to this situation... partially due to emotional roadblocks. Once you side step the emotion of all of this, logic and reason will kick in, and you will free yourself from your Western imperialist mental slavery. :loco:
 
#7,106
#7,106
Burhead said:
Because the world would end?
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What we are doing right now could very well have the same result. If Putin were half the madman you all seem to paint him out to be, he would have had tanks crossing the border and sitting in Kiev 3 days later.
 
#7,107
#7,107
Burhead said:
Again I reiterate my question, why does Russia reserve the right to meddle in the affairs of it's former territories?
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The share a common ancestry and/or you have significant Russian population in most of them (from the old Soviet Union).

I never seem to hear these questions raised when the US scampers across Central America, South America, Africa, the Middle East, Europe or Asia. It is almost like the US has a license to meddle on all 7 continents, but Russia can't have a say in countries that border them and have ethnic Russians.
 
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#7,108
#7,108
Rasputin_Vol said:
The share a common ancestry and/or you have significant Russian population in most of them (from the old Soviet Union).

I never seem to hear these questions raised when the US scampers across Central America, South America, Africa, the Middle East, Europe or Asia. It is almost like the US has a license to meddle on all 7 continents, but Russia can't have a say in countries that border them and have ethnic Russians.
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The US has as much right to be in Europe as the Russians do. After all we fought two world wars there and contained the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact for 44 years...
 
#7,109
#7,109
Burhead said:
The US has as much right to be in Europe as the Russians do. After all we fought two world wars there and contained the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact for 44 years...
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Good, then you've just answered your own question. If you feel the the US belongs in Europe because they fought 2 world wars there, then the same should be true of Russia... no questions asked.
 
#7,110
#7,110
Burhead said:
The US has as much right to be in Europe as the Russians do. After all we fought two world wars there and contained the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact for 44 years...
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Just curious, what is our justification for being everywhere else on the planet?
 
#7,111
#7,111
Rasputin_Vol said:
Good, then you've just answered your own question. If you feel the the US belongs in Europe because they fought 2 world wars there, then the same should be true of Russia... no questions asked.
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Except in this equation the Soviets/Russians have been the only one that has taken aggressive military actions in Europe. See;

Soviet Support in Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)
Soviet Invasion of Poland (1939)
Invaded Finland in the Winter War (1939)
Occupied the Baltic States (1940)
Instituted the Berlin Blockade (1948)
Invaded Hungary (1956)
Suppressed the Prague Spring (1968)
 
#7,114
#7,114
red butler said:
The Mexican war covers all of Latin America, Mogadishu covers Africa, we fought japan in WWII covering Asia, and Desert Storm justifies all Arab countries.
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Say what you want about Africa and Latin America but Europe and Asia are two regions we definitely have justification to be involved with.
 
#7,117
#7,117
Burhead said:
It was an ammo dump hit by the Ukrainians.
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Is it surprising to anyone that it would be the Ukrainians bombing during the time when Putin, Merkel and Hollande are trying to negotiate peace?

How can you broker peace when the Ukrainians are obviously taking advice from their American puppet masters and wanting to ratchet things up even more?
 
#7,118
#7,118
Burhead said:
Except in this equation the Soviets/Russians have been the only one that has taken aggressive military actions in Europe. See;

Soviet Support in Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)
Soviet Invasion of Poland (1939)
Invaded Finland in the Winter War (1939)
Occupied the Baltic States (1940)
Instituted the Berlin Blockade (1948)
Invaded Hungary (1956)
Suppressed the Prague Spring (1968)
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Which further proves my point... all of these are Cold War events. The Soviets lost.
 
#7,119
#7,119
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZGHDlODo3Q[/youtube]

Just reading about this volunteer battalion a few days ago. It was formed by Chechens wanting to fight for Ukraine. It's newest leader, Adam Osmayev, was arrested for trying to assassinate Putin. It's previous commander, Isa Munayev, was killed in Debaltseve on the 1st. He was a veteran of both Chechen campaigns against the Russians.
 
#7,120
#7,120
Rasputin_Vol said:
Is it surprising to anyone that it would be the Ukrainians bombing during the time when Putin, Merkel and Hollande are trying to negotiate peace?

How can you broker peace when the Ukrainians are obviously taking advice from their American puppet masters and wanting to ratchet things up even more?
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To my knowledge there is no cease-fire for these latest rounds of "peace" talks. Even so the Russian backed separatists have violated other cease-fires in the past.
 
#7,122
#7,122
Burhead said:
It was an ammo dump hit by the Ukrainians.
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That was one hell of an explosion. I've seen about 100 artillery rounds detonated and there was wasn't even an aftershock. I've also seen video of the camp Doha explosion where an entire cav squadron's ammo dump blew up... It didn't look anything like that. I can't see 155mm artillery doing that kind of damage. I would think you'd get a bunch of secondary explosions if one hit an ammo dump. Maybe a surface to surface missile could do it, or an Air Force bomb.

I guess I'm asking if anyone's ever seen anything like that?
 
#7,123
#7,123
red butler said:
That was one hell of an explosion. I've seen about 100 artillery rounds detonated and there was wasn't even an aftershock. I've also seen video of the camp Doha explosion where an entire cav squadron's ammo dump blew up... It didn't look anything like that. I can't see 155mm artillery doing that kind of damage. I would think you'd get a bunch of secondary explosions if one hit an ammo dump. Maybe a surface to surface missile could do it, or a MOAB
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I agree but that's what they are saying. I would wager it could be a tactical ballistic missile strike and I have also seen some theories it could have been a fuel air bomb. Regardless it was not a tactical nuclear weapon like Alex Jones was speculating.
 
#7,125
#7,125
Burhead said:
I agree but that's what they are saying. I would wager it could be a tactical ballistic missile strike and I have also seen some theories it could have been a fuel air bomb. Regardless it was not a tactical nuclear weapon like Alex Jones was speculating.
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Do the Ukrainians have this type of munition normally or would they have had to get it from an outside entity?
 
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