Is it time for revolution?

I would think that would be highly detrimental to small farmers and corporate farms.

Small farmers tend to be land-rich yet cash-poor, so simply taxing their property beyond what they can sustain when they are ALREADY using it for a productive purpose seems to counter your own reasoning for raising property taxes.

Corporate farms would likewise see a tremendous increase in taxes and would have to adjust product price accordingly. Price of food skyrockets. Small farms go out of business.

In Adam Smith's time, the vast majority of land was owned by very wealthy aristocrats and the Church. Smith's suggestion was progressive for his day, taxing the landed gentry to support the landless peasantry. Thomas Paine puts forth a similar argument in Agrarian Justice. Today, instead of land, compounding capital is the moneyed aristocracy's greatest asset.

I agree. I live in a farming community. If this were passed it would wipe every single one them out. We already pay property tax. So in order to generate the tax dollars needed today, you have to tax the everloving crap out of land. Any idea what that would do to food prices? Come on man, this just isn't feasible
 
Land would not sit idle, as individuals who neither want to pay the taxes nor cultivate the land will sell, and sell at low rates, if no one who desires to either pay the tax or pay the tax and cultivate is willing to pay the current exorbitant prices that are land prices.

If the elite do want to pay the high prices and the high taxes, they will be forced to cultivate to offset. Higher production, lower prices of goods, is much more beneficial than the "American Dream" of owning land.

You don't know much about farming or ranching do you?

Land must sit idle for a certain time in order to be productive.
 
Let's start this revolution tomorrow if possible.

I'm a little to hung over today.
 
Land would not sit idle, as individuals who neither want to pay the taxes nor cultivate the land will sell, and sell at low rates, if no one who desires to either pay the tax or pay the tax and cultivate is willing to pay the current exorbitant prices that are land prices.

If the elite do want to pay the high prices and the high taxes, they will be forced to cultivate to offset. Higher production, lower prices of goods, is much more beneficial than the "American Dream" of owning land.

You assume cultivation is the highest and best use of land... One rate for all common sizes of land? One acre in Lick Skillet, TN (ground too rocky by far) compared to one acre in Manhattan? Growing crops and raising animals is not the highest best use in either case.
 
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You don't know much about farming or ranching do you?

Land must sit idle for a certain time in order to be productive.

Exactly, and it's also very important to have woodlands to sustain ecosystems and control co2. Also for hunting and trapping. If you plant a field constantly, you will remove all the nutrients from the earth faster than it can replenish. And another thing, think about cattle farmers. Goodbye grass fed beef. Just the idea of this theory is making PETA cringe.
 
You also portray as though wealthy people have bought up all the land are just letting it all sit idle. That's not the case. I'm assuming you don't own land so you see this as way for you not to pay taxes. How is a 15% sales tax not fair, please explain.

I do own land. So, false assumption.

I never portrayed it as though all the land is in the hands of the wealthiest. So, again, false.

A consumption tax discourages production, just like an income tax. A consumption tax also does not necessarily account for "consumed" services. And, trying to account for such and making the determination of which are basic and necessary is much more problematic than is the case with goods. Further, the case of which goods are necessary is problematic. Which food counts as untaxable? Which cars? Which boats? Which planes? Which sets of clothes? Which books? The Fair Tax, since it relies heavily on lowering the current expenses of a complicated IRS cannot have the machinery in place to make these determinations. But, surely, they are determinations that must be made. Someone living in Alaska is going to use more fuel and require more clothing material than someone living in San Diego. Thus, the same tax prefund or nontaxable items in San Diego and Anchorage is both absurd and unfair.

Maybe, just different rules for different zip codes. Fair enough. But what about the "normal" kid who lives across the street from the kid with Palsy or dyslexia? Don't such kids require different basic goods (not to mention services)? Thus either the same prefund and nontaxable items, or some mechanism to make a determination.

The FairTax cannot provide such a mechanism at a low rate. If it increases the rate, it loses much of its appeal. If it provides a huge umbrella of prefunds and nontaxable items and services, it loses its revenue.

Basically, the FairTax, like the current income tax, will run in the red, though maybe not to the same degree as the income tax, or it will be unduly unfair for certain populations.
 
I agree. I live in a farming community. If this were passed it would wipe every single one them out. We already pay property tax. So in order to generate the tax dollars needed today, you have to tax the everloving crap out of land. Any idea what that would do to food prices? Come on man, this just isn't feasible

It is feasible, and food prices would drop, since production would increase. Maybe the small farmer would disappear. I wouldn't miss it.
 
You assume cultivation is the highest and best use of land... One rate for all common sizes of land? One acre in Lick Skillet, TN (ground too rocky by far) compared to one acre in Manhattan? Growing crops and raising animals is not the highest best use in either case.

By cultivation, I don't necessary imply growing crops. I mean that one uses their land to produce, whether that is by renting out rooms, space, etc., growing crops, or mining for resources.
 
Exactly, and it's also very important to have woodlands to sustain ecosystems and control co2. Also for hunting and trapping. If you plant a field constantly, you will remove all the nutrients from the earth faster than it can replenish. And another thing, think about cattle farmers. Goodbye grass fed beef. Just the idea of this theory is making PETA cringe.

That's just part of it. The world changed since Adam Smith's time and his theories no longer are quite as valid as they were in his agrarian times.

Think about a nuclear power plant as another example. They need larger tracts of land for a safety and security buffer. Yet that land ends up being "idle." And still taxed under the Adam Smith system. Which in turn gets sent to the consumer since the power company has no other alternative but to recoup that lost money through higher bills. That's just one industry and there are countless more that would require such a safety barrier that would leave large tracts of land to sit idle.

This would quickly turn into the largest economic disasters the world has ever seen. Nobody would want to own any appreciable tracts of land due to the large penalties involved. And in turn, what becomes of that land? If it's not being used, yet still taxed, what becomes of the owners if they cannot pay the bills? And who gets the property in the end? (the answer I'm alluding to here is "government")
 
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So the government gets to decide how much property is "enough" for a single person?

No, the individual decides. You want a cubic foot, you pay taxes for that cubic foot. You want a hectare, you pay taxes for that hectare.
 
It is feasible, and food prices would drop, since production would increase. Maybe the small farmer would disappear. I wouldn't miss it.

Yeah, because it's far better for two or three large corporations to control food prices than a bunch of smaller farmers.

That's what we call a cartel. And furthermore, a monopoly on a basic substance required to live.
 
I understand crop rotation, and my father is a cattleman.

It won't work TRUT.

You suggest a set tax rate for a piece of land.

Let's use a 10 acre tract. Both are taxed at 5,000 dollars a year. You grow grass (hay) for livestock to eat. I grow cotton. Cotton nets a larger profit than hay.

Who is getting screwed?
 
I understand crop rotation, and my father is a cattleman.

So you understand the large hole in your theory then. And you (should) know the cost of taxes will never be offset by the income of the goods from said property if larger tracts of land are required yet sit idle.
 
By cultivation, I don't necessary imply growing crops. I mean that one uses their land to produce, whether that is by renting out rooms, space, etc., growing crops, or mining for resources.

So one rate for common sizes does not fit all, after all. Then, we are back around to my first question. What is the base of taxation if not fair market value of the property?
 
It's never going to generate the amount of revenue needed. You don't have to vary tax rates on every darn consumable with the sales tax. You set one tax rate, maybe one slightly lower for groceries but it stops there. It would operate just as state sales taxes do. And if that increase causes somebody not to able to afford cost of living, we have food stamps etc. it doesn't have to be overly complicated and made into such a cluster as you suggest. Every single American should be able to understand exactly how they're taxed and at what rate without reasonable doubt. I feel we are owed that in the free world and confusing, slanted taxes are by all means, oppressive!
 
No, the individual decides. You want a cubic foot, you pay taxes for that cubic foot. You want a hectare, you pay taxes for that hectare.

So I rent from a property owner. And in turn, my rent is increased so the actual property owner can pay the taxes on property they own. And I'm paying higher sums on basic utilities and food prices since the taxes eventually hit the consumer.

And since we have moved on past the days of small houses and entered the modern era where high rise buildings are essential, is the additional square footage of high rise apartments taxed if I wanted to buy?
 
That's just part of it. The world changed since Adam Smith's time and his theories no longer are quite as valid as they were in his agrarian times.

Think about a nuclear power plant as another example. They need larger tracts of land for a safety and security buffer. Yet that land ends up being "idle." And still taxed under the Adam Smith system. Which in turn gets sent to the consumer since the power company has no other alternative but to recoup that lost money through higher bills. That's just one industry and there are countless more that would require such a safety barrier that would leave large tracts of land to sit idle.

This would quickly turn into the largest economic disasters the world has ever seen. Nobody would want to own any appreciable tracts of land due to the large penalties involved. And in turn, what becomes of that land? If it's not being used, yet still taxed, what becomes of the owners if they cannot pay the bills? And who gets the property in the end? (the answer I'm alluding to here is "government")

The nuclear power plant example is not convincing. The individuals who buy the large swath of land for the power plant, as it stands even now, but more land than is strictly needed to cultivate power, yet they are only buying all the land in order to cultivate and sell power. Nothing changes in that scenario, except now they purchase the land at a lower cost because someone doesn't want to pay the taxes on it, and then pay taxes. Nothing necessarily entails an increase in price. Further, even if the price of electricity increased (over what, less efficient power plants that are currently supplying most of the electricity?), the price of most other basic goods will still have decreased due to the simple mechanics of supply and demand.

This leads me back to the first point, re: Adam Smith doesn't work today because the world is different. It's not in any relevant sense, as the principles of logic and economics are timeless.
 
Yeah, because it's far better for two or three large corporations to control food prices than a bunch of smaller farmers.

That's what we call a cartel. And furthermore, a monopoly on a basic substance required to live.

Wrong and wrong. Cartels require collusion, not merely just a few sellers.
 
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