Ukraine Protests

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#6,976
#6,976
Pacer, that Pravda opinion piece you linked this morning, do you believe that there really is a genocide being committed in eastern Ukraine right now (or at any point during this conflict)? Or even ethnic cleansing (not necessarily genocide)?
 
#6,977
#6,977
volprof said:
Pacer, that Pravda opinion piece you linked this morning, do you believe that there really is a genocide being committed in eastern Ukraine right now (or at any point during this conflict)? Or even ethnic cleansing (not necessarily genocide)?
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It ought to be obvious from the very beginning with Maiden, where Moscow and Russians were already being singled out before Yanukovych ever left town. The massacre in Odessa(chants of death to Russians), and initial legislature to ban the Russian language and that ethnic Russians are being discriminated against and killed.

E Ukraine was attacked in April of 14. This last bastion of ethnic Russians were not to be wiped out, in my opinion, yet scared into submission. Hasn't quite worked out as planned.

The love lost between eastern and western Ukraine goes way beyond any coup or this civil war.
 
#6,978
#6,978
Pacer92 said:
It ought to be obvious from the very beginning with Maiden, where Moscow and Russians were already being singled out before Yanukovych ever left town. The massacre in Odessa(chants of death to Russians), and initial legislature to ban the Russian language and that ethnic Russians are being discriminated against and killed.

E Ukraine was attacked in April of 14. This last bastion of ethnic Russians were not to be wiped out, in my opinion, yet scared into submission. Hasn't quite worked out as planned.

The love lost between eastern and western Ukraine goes way beyond any coup or this civil war.
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How do you justify Ukrainian discrimination, beatings, and disappearances in Crimea?
 
#6,979
#6,979
Pacer92 said:
It ought to be obvious from the very beginning with Maiden, where Moscow and Russians were already being singled out before Yanukovych ever left town. The massacre in Odessa(chants of death to Russians), and initial legislature to ban the Russian language and that ethnic Russians are being discriminated against and killed.

E Ukraine was attacked in April of 14. This last bastion of ethnic Russians were not to be wiped out, in my opinion, yet scared into submission. Hasn't quite worked out as planned.

The love lost between eastern and western Ukraine goes way beyond any coup or this civil war.
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Is America behind this ethnic cleansing, in your opinion? I'm not talking about the deposing of Yany; I'm talking about philosophically and by providing resources. You were tentative in your response, but I get the impression you're not quite willing to label it a "genocide," at least not yet.
 
#6,981
#6,981
volprof said:
Is America behind this ethnic cleansing, in your opinion? I'm not talking about the deposing of Yany; I'm talking about philosophically and by providing resources. You were tentative in your response, but I get the impression you're not quite willing to label it a "genocide," at least not yet.
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Correct! I'd stop far short of labeling it a genocide. However, I do know that ethnic Russians in e Ukraine are being killed indiscriminately.

I think America is responsible for this war, yes.
 
#6,983
#6,983
Can we please just get out of Ukraine? They don't border us, they're not in our hemisphere. Let the Europeans hash all of this out.
 
#6,984
#6,984
Burhead said:
Than why bring up one side's issues and not the other?
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I'm not anti-American. I'm anti-American government, esp when it comes to foreign policy.

In my opinion, we(the US govt) is in the wrong here. Instead of investing our billions in Ukraine the right way, we used it to finance a change of leadership illegally. We couldn't wait for the next election. We forcefully removed a democratically elected president. And in effect, many people both Ukrainian and Russian have lost their lives.

I think if people would put themselves in Putins shoes, they'd see that he's had no choice but to react.
 
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#6,985
#6,985
Pacer92 said:
I'm not anti-American. I'm anti-American government, esp when it comes to foreign policy.

In my opinion, we(the US govt) is in the wrong here. Instead of investing our billions in Ukraine the right way, we used it to finance a change of leadership illegally. We couldn't wait for the next election. We forcefully removed a democratically elected president. And in effect, many people both Ukrainian and Russian have lost their lives.

I think if people would put themselves in Putins shoes, they'd see that he's had no choice but to react.
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Following the Constitution and listening to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers when it comes to getting involved in the affairs of Europe is seen as un-American or fascist nowadays. You know things are bad when you have Barack Obama and John McCain coming together to arm a country that is halfway around the globe in a conflict that is of little relevance to the average Joe on the street here in America. Yet, you have most of the people here that enable these leaders to make decisions and make excuses that will ultimately drive us to WWIII, when we should have never been involved in the first place.
 
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#6,986
#6,986
Also, most of these guys have 50 year old programming on their mental hard drives. They are still looking at Russia as an empire building, communist menace. The people of Russia are fully aware of the errors and horrors of communism and have no desires to return to that era... neither does Putin. However, what they do want is pride in their Russian heritage and history. And when someone or something comes in and threatens a place where countless Russians have fought and died for over 2 centuries (Crimea), then you are going to get a visceral, emotional reaction from the Russians. What did the State Department jackals expect to happen?
 
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#6,987
#6,987
Rasputin_Vol said:
Following the Constitution and listening to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers when it comes to getting involved in the affairs of Europe is seen as un-American or fascist nowadays. You know things are bad when you have Barack Obama and John McCain coming together to arm a country that is halfway around the globe in a conflict that is of little relevance to the average Joe on the street here in America. Yet, you have most of the people here that enable these leaders to make decisions and make excuses that will ultimately drive us to WWIII, when we should have never been involved in the first place.
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I agree and I think arming Kiev will only escalate things and bring us closer to WWIII. I actually think Russia has shown great restraint in this crisis. With multiple NATO countries building up militarily on it's border, a neighbor country attacking native Russians on it's border and the multiple economic sanctions, I'd be willing to bet if America was in this position, most would see it differently..
 
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#6,988
#6,988
Rasputin_Vol said:
Following the Constitution and listening to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers when it comes to getting involved in the affairs of Europe is seen as un-American or fascist nowadays. You know things are bad when you have Barack Obama and John McCain coming together to arm a country that is halfway around the globe in a conflict that is of little relevance to the average Joe on the street here in America. Yet, you have most of the people here that enable these leaders to make decisions and make excuses that will ultimately drive us to WWIII, when we should have never been involved in the first place.
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I wish you'd stop talking about the Constitution. You're a sham. You care not for it. All you care about it your little warped version of "freedom."

Stop being a goober. Go join the lash-whippers and bag you some unruly womarns' and *****s.
 
#6,989
#6,989
Rasputin_Vol said:
Following the Constitution and listening to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers when it comes to getting involved in the affairs of Europe is seen as un-American or fascist nowadays. You know things are bad when you have Barack Obama and John McCain coming together to arm a country that is halfway around the globe in a conflict that is of little relevance to the average Joe on the street here in America. Yet, you have most of the people here that enable these leaders to make decisions and make excuses that will ultimately drive us to WWIII, when we should have never been involved in the first place.
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bury our heads in the sand? I don't know if i would call that Anti-American or fascist but it would definitely create another level of political dumbness below Bush and Obama, which is saying something.

and i can't think of an American war where average Joe was effected. Revolution went from paying taxes to the brits to their own ~66% of the nation didn't want the war at all. War of 1812, british attacked didn't change anything for Joe. Mexican American War, nope. Civil War, maybe. Spanish American War, nope. WWI nope, WWII nope. Korean and Vietnam hardly, and the current ongoing mess in the ME/Afghanistan didn't start because an american was oppressed or wanted for something. none of our wars have really been to improve the lot of Americans. that may have been a result, or resulted in more Americans down the line. very few wars in history are actually fought to improve the life of average Joe.

with that being said I really do wish the next president would completely pull America out of all foreign affairs for his whole term. spend the time and money fixing our problems, and watch the world burn. The world would not last a year without our direct intervention. NK takes over Korea, ISIS takes over the ME, Africa turns into a whole scale civil war/genocide gone wild, China starts fighting all of its Asian neighbors (look at conflicts with Japan, Vietnam and others brewing), afghanistan/Pakistan falls into chaos, India would likely invade them to try and settle it. South America would be the home of even more tyrants and broken countries of extreme corruption beyond what is there now. Europe would be rattled, the baltic nations would quickly fall to infighting, Russia would find itself unopposed and at the very least 'annexes' land with native russians on it, including most of scandavia and anything east of poland. germany, france and Britain would be shell shocked by the sudden vacuum of power finding themselves alone at the top and finding out how unfriendly the world is to those that want to rule it. the EU and the Euro would more than likely collapse without its biggest trade market, causing all of Europe sans the big 3 or 4 to default which would lead to innumerable conflicts. then there are the numerous pirates and other exploiters of international trade who would suddenly find themselves unopposed.

congrats Ras, you sacrificed the longest period of peace in the history of human civilization all so you could follow the wisdom of men who didn't know what electricity was, and had the wisdom to leave the Constitution vague enough to allow the oppression of women and blacks. created the foundation of the two party system which has lead to a continuous choice of a giant douche or a turd sandwich. lets not forget how they created a tax system which was insufficient for their needs at the time, and very unpopular at the time as well leading to several rebellions. they started us down the road of debt by creating a system that could not support themselves. congratulations lets blindly follow them because they were successful revolutionaries and must have been the smartest people ever who were omnipresent enough to know exactly how the US should act in the future, ie. head in the sand.
 
#6,991
#6,991
LouderVol said:
congrats Ras, you sacrificed the longest period of peace in the history of human civilization all so you could follow the wisdom of men who didn't know what electricity was, and had the wisdom to leave the Constitution vague enough to allow the oppression of women and blacks. created the foundation of the two party system which has lead to a continuous choice of a giant douche or a turd sandwich. lets not forget how they created a tax system which was insufficient for their needs at the time, and very unpopular at the time as well leading to several rebellions. they started us down the road of debt by creating a system that could not support themselves. congratulations lets blindly follow them because they were successful revolutionaries and must have been the smartest people ever who were omnipresent enough to know exactly how the US should act in the future, ie. head in the sand.
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All the answers to 2015 were set in stone in the 1700s.
 
#6,992
#6,992
Rasputin_Vol said:
Also, most of these guys have 50 year old programming on their mental hard drives. They are still looking at Russia as an empire building, communist menace. The people of Russia are fully aware of the errors and horrors of communism and have no desires to return to that era... neither does Putin. However, what they do want is pride in their Russian heritage and history. And when someone or something comes in and threatens a place where countless Russians have fought and died for over 2 centuries (Crimea), then you are going to get a visceral, emotional reaction from the Russians. What did the State Department jackals expect to happen?
Click to expand...

Putin is a thug and the only reason why he is riding so high on the world stage currently is because Obama is such an empty suit. To say he wouldn't like to see a return to the Warsaw Pact vs. NATO dynamic is naive.
 
#6,993
#6,993
MG1968 said:
Putin is a thug and the only reason why he is riding so high on the world stage currently is because Obama is such an empty suit. To say he wouldn't like to see a return to the Warsaw Pact vs. NATO dynamic is naive.
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The only reason Putin is a thug is because this administration and the MSM they dictate to have labelled him as such. He refuses to bow down to the American agenda of dominating the world economically and militarily. Anyone who refuses this is deemed a thug, dictator or fascist. People refuse to see what a powerful weapon we have in controlling the media, yet the minds of the masses. This is no conspiracy theory, it's the truth.
 
#6,994
#6,994
Pacer92 said:
The only reason Putin is a thug is because this administration and the MSM they dictate to have labelled him as such. He refuses to bow down to the American agenda of dominating the world economically and militarily. Anyone who refuses this is deemed a thug, dictator or fascist. People refuse to see what a powerful weapon we have in controlling the media, yet the minds of the masses. This is no conspiracy theory, it's the truth.
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No, he's a thug. I don't need Bush, Obama or the Pope to tell me that. He was once a high ranking officer in the KGB and as such, likely has the blood of hundreds, if not thousands, of fellow Russians on his hands. So you and Ras will have to excuse me if I don't fall in line with your slobbering hero worship.
 
#6,995
#6,995
Pacer92 said:
Correct! I'd stop far short of labeling it a genocide. However, I do know that ethnic Russians in e Ukraine are being killed indiscriminately.

I think America is responsible for this war, yes.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. What do you think should be Russia's natural borders?
 
#6,999
#6,999
Pacer92 said:
The only reason Putin is a thug is because this administration and the MSM they dictate to have labelled him as such. He refuses to bow down to the American agenda of dominating the world economically and militarily. Anyone who refuses this is deemed a thug, dictator or fascist. People refuse to see what a powerful weapon we have in controlling the media, yet the minds of the masses. This is no conspiracy theory, it's the truth.
Click to expand...

Let's do the rundown for Putin.

Pros
1. Revived Russia's economy tenfold (until recent crisis). Very important. He did very well in this respect.
2. Revived Russia's sense of purpose in the world and its "near abroad."
3. Revived Russian national pride
4. Completely modernized the Russian military and nuclear strategic forces, which probably couldn't have defeated the state of Alabama before his presidency.
5. Desires to create a Eurasian economic zone that may, in his opinion, be more fair to non-Westerners.
6. Desires to create a multi-polar world, where the US is not allowed to just run amok (there's a lot of scholarly debate about whether or not a multi-polar world is safest, but fair enough).
7. Miscellany

Cons
1. Neo-fascist
2. Anti-LGBT
3. Revanchist
4. Quasi-theocratic/anti-Muslim
5. Ethnocentric
6. State capitalist
7. Had 400 Russians blown up to start the Second Chechen War and consolidate his presidential bid
8. Numerous anti-Putin journalists murdered
9. Locked down on Internet access and free media
10. Miscellany

I guess it's a question of what we find more valuable on this list as far as where we locate Putin as a world leader.
 
#7,000
#7,000
volprof said:
Let's do the rundown for Putin.

Pros
1. Revived Russia's economy tenfold (until recent crisis). Very important. He did very well in this respect.
2. Revived Russia's sense of purpose in the world and its "near abroad."
3. Revived Russian national pride
4. Completely modernized the Russian military and nuclear strategic forces, which probably couldn't have defeated the state of Alabama before his presidency.
5. Desires to create a Eurasian economic zone that may, in his opinion, be more fair to non-Westerners.
6. Desires to create a multi-polar world, where the US is not allowed to just run amok (there's a lot of scholarly debate about whether or not a multi-polar world is safest, but fair enough).
7. Miscellany

Cons
1. Neo-fascist
2. Anti-LGBT
3. Revanchist
4. Quasi-theocratic/anti-Muslim
5. Ethnocentric
6. State capitalist
7. Had 400 Russians blown up to start the Second Chechen War and consolidate his presidential bid
8. Numerous anti-Putin journalists murdered
9. Locked down on Internet access and free media
10. Miscellany

I guess it's a question of what we find more valuable on this list as far as where we locate Putin as a world leader.
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I'll admit Putin is not the second coming, but I think I have to look at it in the sense that NATO(established to combat soviet expansion) is expanding.

I do not see where Russia is expanding. Sure, they want to expand their influence like all world powers, but this is on their front porch. I do not fault Putin for any reaction he's taken so far, jmo.
 
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