To Protect and to Serve...

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#2,227
#2,227
myrobbins7 said:
Ironically, this video was uploaded a day after the incident on "Thank a police officer day". LOL...(The action begins at about the 3.20 mins.)

CHECKPOINT Belligerent Cop Loses Temper - YouTube
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I've never understood the "driving is a privilege not a right" garbage. Like they're doing us a favor allowing us to drive the vehicles we own on the roads our tax dollars paved.

As far as the video... The driver was an idiot but that doesn't excuse the cops behavior. When you're pissing on people's rights, you can't blow up on them when they wonder why. He needs to grow up and learn how to treat people.
 
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#2,228
#2,228
Just caught word that my cousin passed away last night. He was a real police. Rio Rancho PD (New Mexico). He was old school. Did everything from narcotics unit to gang unit to union rep for his department*. When he got older he asked for a desk job, cause he said if he got called in for one more domestic abuse report, he was gonna kill the abuser.

Also, my cousin looked exactly like Farva from Super Troopers, and he was a badass linebacker in his day. RIP

*it actually led to a political scandal where his Lieutenant test scores were changed so he couldn't make rank - it sounds like BS, but it came out in court, under sworn testimony by the guy who changed the test score - he got like 6 years of backpay in one lump sum in a settlement.
 
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#2,230
#2,230
Cdywolfe said:
I've never understood the "driving is a privilege not a right" garbage. Like they're doing us a favor allowing us to drive the vehicles we own on the roads our tax dollars paved.

As far as the video... The driver was an idiot but that doesn't excuse the cops behavior. When you're pissing on people's rights, you can't blow up on them when they wonder why. He needs to grow up and learn how to treat people.
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When that trooper opened the door and stuck his head in the car, I would argue that should be a situation where you are allowed to defend yourself, including the use of lethal force if necessary. That was extremely aggressive behavior, and I guarantee that if the roles were reversed the trooper would have shot the guy to death for that same type of behavior.
 
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#2,233
#2,233
Gannon Goodson said:
Another example of poor training.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4enJpKO-44[/youtube]
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Nothing to do with training. And with a Paul Harvey note:

Sean Groubert, South Carolina State Trooper, Fired & Arrested After Shooting Unarmed Man

A South Carolina state trooper was fired last week and arrested on Wednesday after a dashcam video showed him shooting an unarmed man during a routine traffic stop.

Former officer Sean Groubert, 31, is seen in the newly released video pulling over Levar Edward Jones. The clip, which was recorded on Groubert's dashcam on Sept. 4, shows Jones getting out of his vehicle at a gas station in Columbia.
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Isn't accountability what you scream about after incidents like this?
 
#2,234
#2,234
Grand Vol said:
Nothing to do with training. And with a Paul Harvey note:

Sean Groubert, South Carolina State Trooper, Fired & Arrested After Shooting Unarmed Man



Isn't accountability what you scream about after incidents like this?
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I already knew all of this before I posted the video. It's not about him getting fired, or the highly unlikely chance he's convicted by a jury after he claims he felt his "life was in danger." This is about a man who was unarmed and made no furtive movement toward the officer getting shot. To top it off, this assclown got off four shots at 5-8 feet (2 of which occurred with the guy's hands in the air) with one hit. At 25% he's slightly below the police average of 30%. Imagine if he shot another bystander.

It goes back to one of my original arguments. Cops are poorly trained individuals who view We the People in an adversarial way. In cop language, We the People are referred to as "civilians." Moreover, every cop I've ever known can't shoot for s***. A lot of police departments have substandard qualifications when it comes to their weapons systems.
 
#2,236
#2,236
Gannon Goodson said:
I already knew all of this before I posted the video.
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So why not include it in your post? Couldn't you as a minimum include the caveat of "at least justice appears to be working in this instance."

Or, more likely, you'd rather have the aftermath hidden because it doesn't fit your agenda and outrage.
 
#2,237
#2,237
Grand Vol said:
So why not include it in your post? Couldn't you as a minimum include the caveat of "at least justice appears to be working in this instance."

Or, more likely, you'd rather have the aftermath hidden because it doesn't fit your agenda and outrage.
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Quite honestly, I didn't think it was necessary. Second, we don't know if justice "appears to be working" because the criminal case is a long way from being resolved. Third, it's simply asinine to say I'd rather have the aftermath hidden. A 10-second Google search would've brought up everything you posted. Fourth, I have no agenda other than to make sure the police uphold their oath to the Constitution. Unfortunately, too many of them are not -- and that is the death knell of any republic. That is why police abuse and misconduct concern me.
 
#2,238
#2,238
Gannon Goodson said:
Quite honestly, I didn't think it was necessary. Second, we don't know if justice "appears to be working" because the criminal case is a long way from being resolved. Third, it's simply asinine to say I'd rather have the aftermath hidden. A 10-second Google search would've brought up everything you posted. Fourth, I have no agenda other than to make sure the police uphold their oath to the Constitution. Unfortunately, too many of them are not -- and that is the death knell of any republic. That is why police abuse and misconduct concern me.
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Finding and reporting rare instances does not imply otherwise. 99.9% of all officers handle that situation properly. Using instances like this as proof that all officers are under trained and violate their oath is ridiculous. This was an instance of an idiot that made it through the process.
 
#2,239
#2,239
tim said:
Finding and reporting rare instances does not imply otherwise. 99.9% of all officers handle that situation properly. Using instances like this as proof that all officers are under trained and violate their oath is ridiculous. This was an instance of an idiot that made it through the process.
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Your 99.9% claim is specious at best, backed up by no scientific data. In addition, I have never claimed that "all" officers are under trained and violate their oath to the Constitution. Even though one is one too many in your profession, I'd say the number is closer to 10%. That is, 10% of cops aren't worth a sh** and have no business carrying a gun or a badge. I think even you and grand would agree with me there.

But let's talk about what we know. Cops are getting hits on target about 30% of time they fire their weapon. That is embarrassingly low. Most of them are okay at double taps on a stationary paper target at 5 to 10 yards, but when it comes to truly fighting with a pistol, they are woefully inadequate. With the process it takes to become a law enforcement officer, it's amazing they can't weed out these idiots. I'm starting to see a pattern -- and as a law-abiding, taxpaying citizen who has never been in any trouble with the law (not even a traffic ticket) I shouldn't be questioning the actions of law enforcement. Hell, not too long ago a San Antonio cop cuffed a 19-year-old girl and raped her in the back of his patrol car. Where the hell are you guys finding these morons?

In sum, I think it's safe to say you have a 1 in 10 chance of running into the bottom of the barrel in law enforcement when confronted by someone with a badge, and that's not a chance I or my family is willing to take. One of the first things my children will learn when they're old enough to understand is to never speak to a police officer. If confronted, request a supervisor, then a lawyer, and keep your mouth shut.
 
#2,241
#2,241
Gannon Goodson said:
Your 99.9% claim is specious at best, backed up by no scientific data. In addition, I have never claimed that "all" officers are under trained and violate their oath to the Constitution. Even though one is one too many in your profession, I'd say the number is closer to 10%. That is, 10% of cops aren't worth a sh** and have no business carrying a gun or a badge. I think even you and grand would agree with me there.

But let's talk about what we know. Cops are getting hits on target about 30% of time they fire their weapon. That is embarrassingly low. Most of them are okay at double taps on a stationary paper target at 5 to 10 yards, but when it comes to truly fighting with a pistol, they are woefully inadequate. With the process it takes to become a law enforcement officer, it's amazing they can't weed out these idiots. I'm starting to see a pattern -- and as a law-abiding, taxpaying citizen who has never been in any trouble with the law (not even a traffic ticket) I shouldn't be questioning the actions of law enforcement. Hell, not too long ago a San Antonio cop cuffed a 19-year-old girl and raped her in the back of his patrol car. Where the hell are you guys finding these morons?

In sum, I think it's safe to say you have a 1 in 10 chance of running into the bottom of the barrel in law enforcement when confronted by someone with a badge, and that's not a chance I or my family is willing to take. One of the first things my children will learn when they're old enough to understand is to never speak to a police officer. If confronted, request a supervisor, then a lawyer, and keep your mouth shut.
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Where is this 30% coming from? Cite your own sources please.

However, I will agree that most departments are not trained to a high enough level. But I will note that's not always the fault of the Chief or Sheriff. That typically falls on the bean counters that limit training ammunition and funds for more advanced classes or instructors. Some departments do go the extra mile, but the vast majority do not.
 
#2,242
#2,242
Gannon Goodson said:
I already knew all of this before I posted the video. It's not about him getting fired, or the highly unlikely chance he's convicted by a jury after he claims he felt his "life was in danger." This is about a man who was unarmed and made no furtive movement toward the officer getting shot. To top it off, this assclown got off four shots at 5-8 feet (2 of which occurred with the guy's hands in the air) with one hit. At 25% he's slightly below the police average of 30%. Imagine if he shot another bystander.

It goes back to one of my original arguments. Cops are poorly trained individuals who view We the People in an adversarial way. In cop language, We the People are referred to as "civilians." Moreover, every cop I've ever known can't shoot for s***. A lot of police departments have substandard qualifications when it comes to their weapons systems.
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while 30% is inexcusable, and it is laughable how many times he missed (just talking aim, not about him shooting up somebody) 4 shots is a small amount of data, if he hits once more that's 50%, and what is 30% of 4 shots? 1.2, would that have calmed you down?
 
#2,243
#2,243
Grand Vol said:
So why not include it in your post? Couldn't you as a minimum include the caveat of "at least justice appears to be working in this instance."

Or, more likely, you'd rather have the aftermath hidden because it doesn't fit your agenda and outrage.
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Outrage is warranted. Whether justice is served or not.
 
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#2,244
#2,244
Grand Vol said:
Where is this 30% coming from? Cite your own sources please.

However, I will agree that most departments are not trained to a high enough level. But I will note that's not always the fault of the Chief or Sheriff. That typically falls on the bean counters that limit training ammunition and funds for more advanced classes or instructors. Some departments do go the extra mile, but the vast majority do not.
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Maybe, but the weeding out process in the beginning also shares some blame. As Tim said, this is an idiot that made it through the process.
 
#2,245
#2,245
tim said:
Finding and reporting rare instances does not imply otherwise. 99.9% of all officers handle that situation properly. Using instances like this as proof that all officers are under trained and violate their oath is ridiculous. This was an instance of an idiot that made it through the process.
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It was on the front page of CNN, so it wasn't like anyone had to do a deep google search for this story. And the fact that CNN continues to report these events means there are concerns beyond just a few VN posters. There is a problem but instead of addressing the problem, the LE community continues to be defensive and closed minded.

If the pictures of heavily armed police officers standing in front of unarmed citizens with their arms raised doesn't cause us all to stop and think for a minute, there is a problem.

If we continue to follow the same pattern of debate (i.e. "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up") on this, as well as many other issues in this country, then we will continue to have problems.
 
#2,246
#2,246
YorkVol said:
It was on the front page of CNN, so it wasn't like anyone had to do a deep google search for this story. And the fact that CNN continues to report these events means there are concerns beyond just a few VN posters. There is a problem but instead of addressing the problem, the LE community continues to be defensive and closed minded.
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I haven't seen anyone defensive or closed minded about the situation and the fact the officer was wrong.

However, I do get defensive when someone posts a video without following up and at least saying "and the ex-cop was fired and later arrested for violating use of force policies." If someone just wants to post up everything wrong, be prepared to get challenged on it with follow up. Now if that's wrong of me to do, then it's equally wrong to post said outrage in the first place.

You say the problem with the country is the "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality. The other half of that is the problem of only giving out half facts. And that kind of nonsense leads us to situations like Ferguson. When all the facts come out and people believe only what they want, I can't help that. But all the facts being known in a situation end up helping the more objective to form opinions.
 
#2,247
#2,247
LouderVol said:
while 30% is inexcusable, and it is laughable how many times he missed (just talking aim, not about him shooting up somebody) 4 shots is a small amount of data, if he hits once more that's 50%, and what is 30% of 4 shots? 1.2, would that have calmed you down?
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4 shots from within 10 feet of a full grown man without any cover and not moving? Why did he miss at all?

I think we keep saying he wasn't well trained. I think it was because he was scared. He was alone against someone that he feared. He drew his handgun because he feared the person he had pulled over and that fear led to a misinterpretation of the man's movements. Whereas the man was complying with the officer and posed no visible threat, the officer was already in a state of panic, which led to the only viable option that he could conceive of--pulling the trigger at the slightest perception of a threat, real or imagined.

I suspect all of this officer's fellow police knew that he had this problem. I suspect his supervisors knew as well. This wasn't the first time, I suspect, which is why they were so quick to fire him.
 
#2,248
#2,248
LouderVol said:
while 30% is inexcusable, and it is laughable how many times he missed (just talking aim, not about him shooting up somebody) 4 shots is a small amount of data, if he hits once more that's 50%, and what is 30% of 4 shots? 1.2, would that have calmed you down?
Click to expand...

Probably not.
 
#2,249
#2,249
rjd970 said:
Maybe, but the weeding out process in the beginning also shares some blame. As Tim said, this is an idiot that made it through the process.
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And exactly how many jobs hire perfect people 100% of the time?

Nobody is ever fired for being inept are they?
 
#2,250
#2,250
Grand Vol said:
I haven't seen anyone defensive or closed minded about the situation and the fact the officer was wrong.

However, I do get defensive when someone posts a video without following up and at least saying "and the ex-cop was fired and later arrested for violating use of force policies." If someone just wants to post up everything wrong, be prepared to get challenged on it with follow up. Now if that's wrong of me to do, then it's equally wrong to post said outrage in the first place.

You say the problem with the country is the "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality. The other half of that is the problem of only giving out half facts. And that kind of nonsense leads us to situations like Ferguson. When all the facts come out and people believe only what they want, I can't help that. But all the facts being known in a situation end up helping the more objective to form opinions.
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Obviously I was talking in general, not this particular event. But defensiveness is a distinct element in this debate. I would also agree that a general lack of candor and clarity on the facts also are big factors that are skewing the conversation away from any sort of productivity.
 
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