To Protect and to Serve...

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#2,252
#2,252
Grand Vol said:
And exactly how many jobs hire perfect people 100% of the time?

Nobody is ever fired for being inept are they?
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There is a qualitative difference with being a police officer as PJ said. Why be set against higher standards and better screening requirements?
 
#2,254
#2,254
rjd970 said:
There is a qualitative difference with being a police officer as PJ said. Why be set against higher standards and better screening requirements?
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**** me, are we seriously going to go through your unrealistic expectations of cops again?

You don't want to hear my thoughts on the matter. Because what I will tell you will reverse your course on the matter very quickly. And it will be extremely uncomfortable for you to have to agree with me.
 
#2,255
#2,255
YorkVol said:
4 shots from within 10 feet of a full grown man without any cover and not moving? Why did he miss at all?

I think we keep saying he wasn't well trained. I think it was because he was scared. He was alone against someone that he feared. He drew his handgun because he feared the person he had pulled over and that fear led to a misinterpretation of the man's movements. Whereas the man was complying with the officer and posed no visible threat, the officer was already in a state of panic, which led to the only viable option that he could conceive of--pulling the trigger at the slightest perception of a threat, real or imagined.

I suspect all of this officer's fellow police knew that he had this problem. I suspect his supervisors knew as well. This wasn't the first time, I suspect, which is why they were so quick to fire him.
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i was just trying to point out why it was overblown to freakout about the 25%. i agree that the ex-cop messed up and I hope he gets life at the least.
 
#2,256
#2,256
Grand Vol said:
I'll give you that.

As long as you give me the fact that there are plenty of jobs out there that can (and have) wrecked and ruined lives because of ineptitude and incompetence.
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Sure but if handed a gun and a badge and asked to enforce laws in the community shouldn't more be expected? I'm in favor of a smaller, smarter and better trained police force actually going after criminals.
 
#2,257
#2,257
Grand Vol said:
Where is this 30% coming from? Cite your own sources please.

However, I will agree that most departments are not trained to a high enough level. But I will note that's not always the fault of the Chief or Sheriff. That typically falls on the bean counters that limit training ammunition and funds for more advanced classes or instructors. Some departments do go the extra mile, but the vast majority do not.
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http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

Oh shoot! Cops fire off-target | New York Post

The number actually drops for NYPD. I'll stand behind my claim that they are the worst shots in the Western Hemisphere.

There's certainly something to be said for extra training. It might be beneficial for neighboring agencies to pool their resources. There are tons of competent instructors and organizations offering fighting pistol and rifle classes for civilians. And no doubt, a lot of law enforcement officers train in those settings while off duty. It's actually a growing area, so I'm sure the leadership of certain agencies will take advantage of those services in the future.
 
#2,259
#2,259
Grand Vol said:
And exactly how many jobs hire perfect people 100% of the time?

Nobody is ever fired for being inept are they?
Click to expand...

Let's have a rational, intelligent back-and-forth without getting emotional.

From our (civilian) perspective: People around the country "sense" there is something amiss in law enforcement. I know and associate with good, professional people. There's a feeling that the police are no longer "peace" officers. It goes back to my original statement: the police have become adversarial. What did you and your fellow officers say to each other and your families? No matter what, you're "going home every night." That kind of paranoia is leading to a lot of people being victimized or killed at the hands of law enforcement. Books are being written about this, and it's becoming a national story on both sides of the political spectrum. This is one area where liberals, libertarians and conservatives agree: the police are becoming too aggressive, quick to jump the gun (no pun intended), and hostile toward the local citizenry. You guys used to show up to work in ties; now you're showing up in combat fatigues with AR's, riot gear, and full body armor in an armored personnel carrier.

This issue needs to be addressed. Would you not agree?
 
#2,260
#2,260
Gannon Goodson said:
Let's have a rational, intelligent back-and-forth without getting emotional.

From our (civilian) perspective: People around the country "sense" there is something amiss in law enforcement. I know and associate with good, professional people. There's a feeling that the police are no longer "peace" officers. It goes back to my original statement: the police have become adversarial. What did you and your fellow officers say to each other and your families? No matter what, you're "going home every night." That kind of paranoia is leading to a lot of people being victimized or killed at the hands of law enforcement. Books are being written about this, and it's becoming a national story on both sides of the political spectrum. This is one area where liberals, libertarians and conservatives agree: the police are becoming too aggressive, quick to jump the gun (no pun intended), and hostile toward the local citizenry. You guys used to show up to work in ties; now you're showing up in combat fatigues with AR's, riot gear, and full body armor in an armored personnel carrier.

This issue needs to be addressed. Would you not agree?
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Ill address this by saying that officers feel, rightfully or wrong, that there is an us against them situation. Ferguson and many more incidents feed this parnoia. The officer was indicted by a large portion of society before ANY of the facts were available.

Also, to whomever was asking for more training and screening Ill submit it would not make a difference. Bad people make their way into every job.

Also, to those wondering about his shot percentage. Thats just a silly argument
 
#2,261
#2,261
utvolpj said:
Sure but if handed a gun and a badge and asked to enforce laws in the community shouldn't more be expected? I'm in favor of a smaller, smarter and better trained police force actually going after criminals.
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+1

Cue Grandvol with is panties in a wad screaming at us for being unrealistic.
 
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#2,262
#2,262
tim said:
Ill address this by saying that officers feel, rightfully or wrong, that there is an us against them situation. Ferguson and many more incidents feed this parnoia. The officer was indicted by a large portion of society before ANY of the facts were available.

Also, to whomever was asking for more training and screening Ill submit it would not make a difference. Bad people make their way into every job.

Also, to those wondering about his shot percentage. Thats just a silly argument
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Could this be a case of perception becoming reality? No doubt some a large portion of the population indicted the officer in Ferguson before Michael Brown's body was removed from the street. The 24/7 news cycle and a the growth of the alternative media has brought police abuse and misconduct to the forefront. Iphones allow the average citizen to see police in action, and a lot of people don't like what they see. One bad badge reflects on all badges. That's certainly not fair, but it's a fact of life.

More importantly, people are uncomfortable with the amount of power police are given. If the police screw up, mug shots end up online, reputations are destroyed, and people are forced to spend every last dime and then some to defend themselves. In worst case scenarios, you're in the morgue. If I screw up, the boss tells me to clean out the desk and take a walk.
 
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#2,263
#2,263
More than anything I think it behooves us, the citizens and the "good" police, to look very harshly at bad police work. A good cop is a societal asset, a bad one harms not only the citizens but their perception of cops in general which puts BOTH sides ever more at odds.

Good cops should be AT LEAST as willing to burn bad cops as citizens are...actually more so.
 
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#2,264
#2,264
Gannon Goodson said:
Let's have a rational, intelligent back-and-forth without getting emotional.

From our (civilian) perspective: People around the country "sense" there is something amiss in law enforcement. I know and associate with good, professional people. There's a feeling that the police are no longer "peace" officers. It goes back to my original statement: the police have become adversarial. What did you and your fellow officers say to each other and your families? No matter what, you're "going home every night." That kind of paranoia is leading to a lot of people being victimized or killed at the hands of law enforcement. Books are being written about this, and it's becoming a national story on both sides of the political spectrum. This is one area where liberals, libertarians and conservatives agree: the police are becoming too aggressive, quick to jump the gun (no pun intended), and hostile toward the local citizenry. You guys used to show up to work in ties; now you're showing up in combat fatigues with AR's, riot gear, and full body armor in an armored personnel carrier.

This issue needs to be addressed. Would you not agree?
Click to expand...

I can do without the emotions, so sure. I will reply more (I'm on mobile at work) but you have valid points I'll address when I get back home.
 
#2,265
#2,265
rjd970 said:
+1

Cue Grandvol with is panties in a wad screaming at us for being unrealistic.
Click to expand...

lol, you have me all wrong amigo.

I can look at this objectively from both sides. You honestly can't and see my explanations as "panties in a wad." Since you have a hard time responding, you attempt to insult instead.

Cheers
 
#2,266
#2,266
Grand Vol said:
lol, you have me all wrong amigo.

I can look at this objectively from both sides. You honestly can't and see my explanations as "panties in a wad." Since you have a hard time responding, you attempt to insult instead.

Cheers
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Look at your last response to me, lol.

I'm all about talking about this and you freaked out on an innocent post from me. But, by all means, carry on.
 
#2,267
#2,267
Can someone please teach me the appropriate citizen protocol to follow such that I am not shot by a "bad" cop during a traffic stop. Exit vehicle, lay on ground, await search?
 
#2,268
#2,268
rjd970 said:
Look at your last response to me, lol.

I'm all about talking about this and you freaked out on an innocent post from me. But, by all means, carry on.
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If you consider that freaking out, you really need to make some adjustments to your filters.
 
#2,270
#2,270
Grand Vol said:
I can do without the emotions, so sure. I will reply more (I'm on mobile at work) but you have valid points I'll address when I get back home.
Click to expand...

You better put the phone down and pick up that radar gun! Gotta make your quota or else! :)
 
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