Ukraine Protests

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#3,776
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#3,777
#3,777
Rasputin_Vol said:
1. How do you (or any of us) know that they haven't?
2. Even if they haven't, that is still splitting hairs and exposes the double standard.
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Perhaps they have. I highly doubt, however, Poroshenko or even most common Ukrainians would ever consent to just concede Crimea to Russia politically, even though they essentially did in reality. It's politics.
 
#3,778
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volprof said:
Perhaps they have. I highly doubt, however, Poroshenko or even most common Ukrainians would ever consent to just concede Crimea to Russia politically, even though they essentially did in reality. It's politics.
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Crimea has really only been a possession of Ukraine for 20 or so years (since the fall of the Soviet Union). Before that, it was technically a Soviet state that was still controlled by Moscow for 50 years prior to that. But overall, Crimea has been under Russian influence off and on for the better part of 250-300 years.
 
#3,779
#3,779
Rasputin_Vol said:
Crimea has really only been a possession of Ukraine for 20 or so years (since the fall of the Soviet Union). Before that, it was technically a Soviet state that was still controlled by Moscow for 50 years prior to that. But overall, Crimea has been under Russian influence off and on for the better part of 250-300 years.
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Okay, well I know not to consult you as my lawyer when the man whose family formerly owned the land I "purchased" from them decides to sue me in court to reclaim the previous real estate his family once owned.
 
#3,780
#3,780
volprof said:
Perhaps they have. I highly doubt, however, Poroshenko or even most common Ukrainians would ever consent to just concede Crimea to Russia politically, even though they essentially did in reality. It's politics.
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It's a proposal-- if Ukraine doesn't like the terms, they don't have to agree and they can continue fighting. I'm glad Germany stepped up to the plate. This is big boy international politics and our administration has proven to be inept. The terms of the proposal seem reasonable so it could be a win-win.
 
#3,784
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red butler said:
It's a proposal-- if Ukraine doesn't like the terms, they don't have to agree and they can continue fighting. I'm glad Germany stepped up to the plate. This is big boy international politics and our administration has proven to be inept. The terms of the proposal seem reasonable so it could be a win-win.
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Folks probably said the same about "Peace for our time" as well.

Look, I don't think we're ever going to see T-90s rolling through the streets of Western Europe, but I do find it interesting that some just want to concede that appropriating other nations' territories (not once, but twice now, and possibly three times if the Donbass falls) is acceptable behavior.
 
#3,785
#3,785
hog88 said:
At one time I would have ranked New Zealand and Australia alongside the US.
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Wikipedia has a list of Freedom indices. Unfortunately I was not surprised to see the US ranked:

12th in economic freedom
46th in Freedom of Press

We do rank high in freedom of religion though.
 
#3,786
#3,786
volprof said:
Folks probably said the same about "Peace for our time" as well.

Look, I don't think we're ever going to see T-90s rolling through the streets of Western Europe, but I do find it interesting that some just want to concede that appropriating other nations' territories (not once, but twice now, and possibly three times if the Donbass falls) is acceptable behavior.
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I guess we're looking at this from different sides. I don't watch RT, but I am trying to keep an open mind. Before the Soviet Union fell, Russia received guarantees from the US that NATO would not expand one inch to the east and the countries in the former Soviet sphere of influence would be given their freedom. Since then, Bulgaria, Albania, Croatia, Czech Rep., Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia have all been granted admission into NATO.

The Ukrainian government was overthrown by forceful demonstrations. You can debate whether or not the US was behind it, but the fact remains... if you voted for the previous government, you wouldn't be happy it was overthrown. One of the first things the new government did was outlaw Russian language; the majority of Crimean's speak Russian as their primary language.

When Crimea voted on succession, 97% voted in favor. Certainly steps should have been taken to ensure the vote was legitimate, but Eastern Ukraine also voted for autonomy and the press was able to cover that.

I will end with a 1998 interview of George Keenan (former ambassador to the Soviet Union) I recently read.


His voice is a bit frail now, but the mind, even at age 94, is as sharp as ever. So when I reached George Kennan by phone to get his reaction to the Senate's ratification of NATO expansion it was no surprise to find that the man who was the architect of America's successful containment of the Soviet Union and one of the great American statesmen of the 20th century was ready with an answer.

''I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,'' said Mr. Kennan from his Princeton home.

''I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else. This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this country turn over in their graves. We have signed up to protect a whole series of countries, even though we have neither the resources nor the intention to do so in any serious way. [NATO expansion] was simply a light-hearted action by a Senate that has no real interest in foreign affairs.''

''What bothers me is how superficial and ill informed the whole Senate debate was,'' added Mr. Kennan, who was present at the creation of NATO and whose anonymous 1947 article in the journal Foreign Affairs, signed ''X,'' defined America's cold-war containment policy for 40 years.

''I was particularly bothered by the references to Russia as a country dying to attack Western Europe. Don't people understand? Our differences in the cold war were with the Soviet Communist regime. And now we are turning our backs on the very people who mounted the greatest bloodless revolution in history to remove that Soviet regime.

''And Russia's democracy is as far advanced, if not farther, as any of these countries we've just signed up to defend from Russia,'' said Mr. Kennan, who joined the State Department in 1926 and was U.S. Ambassador to Moscow in 1952.

''It shows so little understanding of Russian history and Soviet history. Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are -- but this is just wrong.''

(...)

As he said goodbye to me on the phone, Mr. Kennan added just one more thing: ''This has been my life, and it pains me to see it so screwed up in the end.''
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#3,787
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Danl said:
Sorry, but I should also included an "and why?" in my original question. Can you elaborate on that?
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Each country has different things that are better or similar to the US. They have some things that may be worse. Are you asking for me to give an itemized line-by-line list for each country or would it be easier to give you the things that I feel are not pro-freedom here in the US?
 
#3,788
#3,788
volprof said:
Folks probably said the same about "Peace for our time" as well.

Look, I don't think we're ever going to see T-90s rolling through the streets of Western Europe, but I do find it interesting that some just want to concede that appropriating other nations' territories (not once, but twice now, and possibly three times if the Donbass falls) is acceptable behavior.
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Wait.. lets start at the very beginning. The whole reason why The Ukraine has been destabilized in the first place is because the US sent Kerry and Victoria Nuland and the State Department jackals over to The Ukraine last fall after it was decided that the Ukraine would not join the EU. Why this is even the business of the US and not simply an internal matter for Ukrainians to settle is a mystery to me ... well, not really a mystery. I know why we sent over the jackals. We wanted the Ukraine to move closer to Western Europe and NATO so that we could put arms in The Ukraine and agitate Russia right in the realm of influence. When the EU decision came down, the US chose destabilization and proceeded to employ their propaganda machine to vilify Russia.

You would rather focus on the consequences of the explosion. I would rather focus on who initially lit the fuse.
 
#3,789
#3,789
Rasputin_Vol said:
Each country has different things that are better or similar to the US.

Yes, they do.

They have some things that may be worse.

Yes, they do

Are you asking for me to give an itemized line-by-line list for each country or would it be easier to give you the things that I feel are not pro-freedom here in the US?
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A itemized list is not really necessary. Is it your evaluation that, overall, any or all of these countries citizens enjoy more overall freedom and liberty than we do here?

Not to be an ass, but if you really felt that were true, why would you live here? I surely would not.
 
#3,790
#3,790
Danl said:
A itemized list is not really necessary. Is it your evaluation that, overall, any or all of these countries citizens enjoy more overall freedom and liberty than we do here?

Not to be an ass, but if you really felt that were true, why would you live here? I surely would not.
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I am making every effort I can to leave one day.
 
#3,798
#3,798
Rasputin_Vol said:
Each country has different things that are better or similar to the US. They have some things that may be worse. Are you asking for me to give an itemized line-by-line list for each country or would it be easier to give you the things that I feel are not pro-freedom here in the US?
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How about just, if you could move tomorow. What county would you imigrate to and why?
 
#3,800
#3,800
red butler said:
When Crimea voted on succession, 97% voted in favor. Certainly steps should have been taken to ensure the vote was legitimate, but Eastern Ukraine also voted for autonomy and the press was able to cover that.
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Bogus elections. Given the composition of Crimea, I'm willing to give that one the benefit of the doubt--most people wanted to break away.

You can't say that about these other "referendums." The polling I saw indicated that it was either close or a majority favored leaving the country intact. It wasn't a legitimate process with both sides campaigning.
 
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