Ukraine Protests

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#3,751
#3,751
Rasputin_Vol said:
You shouldn't worry about boots on the ground on Main Street USA. I've never implied that and you know it. But this shift to the east is something the world needs. We need to get away from the Anglo-American cartel that spreads death and debt around the world.
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You're more than welcome to emigrate to the winning side.
 
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#3,752
#3,752
Grand Vol said:
You're more than welcome to emigrate to the winning side.
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If you are a libertarian, a admirer of the Founding Fathers, the Coinage Act of 1792, Andrew Jackson's destruction of the 2nd Federal Bank and men in the late 1800's that spearheaded the Free Silver campaign and bi-metallic hard money, then you will understand why we need to take control of our country back from these banking interests in London and New York.
 
#3,753
#3,753
Rasputin_Vol said:
If you are a libertarian, a admirer of the Founding Fathers, the Coinage Act of 1792, Andrew Jackson's destruction of the 2nd Federal Bank and men in the late 1800's that spearheaded the Free Silver campaign and bi-metallic hard money, then you will understand why we need to take control of our country back from these banking interests in London and New York.
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I'm all those things, but I don't share your positive view of these events. As things get worse, Americans won't understand or will be misled and the banking cartels will tighten their grip. Also, Russia and China aren't exactly bastions of liberty.
 
#3,754
#3,754
red butler said:
I'm all those things, but I don't share your positive view of these events. As things get worse, Americans won't understand or will be misled and the banking cartels will tighten their grip. Also, Russia and China aren't exactly bastions of liberty.
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They all have their own cartels that run the show; they just haven't had the financial power of the Western ones...yet. China will certainly get there, and Russia may, although it's difficult for me to see at the moment how an economy the size of Italy's is going to serve as a pole in this forthcoming multipolar world.
 
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#3,760
#3,760
Burhead said:
Yes, especially if they are negotiating Ukraine's future without their consent.
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Yet, the 2012 ceasefire deal that the US wants Hamas and Israel to agree upon was not agreed upon by either Hamas nor Israel, but involved then President Morsi of Egypt and then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

So it's OK for the US to broker ceasefire deals with neither Hamas or Israel there, but when Germany offers a deal to The Ukraine, it is suddenly a diplomatic violation?

Really? Is this the best you guys can do?
 
#3,761
#3,761
Rasputin_Vol said:
Yet, the 2012 ceasefire deal that the US wants Hamas and Israel to agree upon was not agreed upon by either Hamas nor Israel, but involved then President Morsi of Egypt and then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

So it's OK for the US to broker ceasefire deals with neither Hamas or Israel there, but when Germany offers a deal to The Ukraine, it is suddenly a diplomatic violation?

Really? Is this the best you guys can do?
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Is there a double-standard? You bet your rear there is. Is that fair? No, not really.

But it's like this, I don't recall Morsi and Clinton negotiating between themselves how Israeli and/or Palestinian land was to be divvied up.
 
#3,762
#3,762
volprof said:
Is there a double-standard? You bet your rear there is. Is that fair? No, not really.

But it's like this, I don't recall Morsi and Clinton negotiating between themselves how Israeli and/or Palestinian land was to be divvied up.
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I never said they did.

This was about them agreeing to a ceasefire, just like German is trying to negotiate a ceasefire with Ukraine.

Also, why is there a double standard at this point?
 
#3,763
#3,763
red butler said:
I'm all those things, but I don't share your positive view of these events. As things get worse, Americans won't understand or will be misled and the banking cartels will tighten their grip. Also, Russia and China aren't exactly bastions of liberty.
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I would agree that Russia and China in particular have a great deal to work on, the United States over the last decade has moved further away from our Constitutional origins and is gradually becoming the police state that we feared would happen if Communists took over during the McCarthy Era.

I say all that to say that the US isn't exactly a bastion of liberty anymore, either.
 
#3,764
#3,764
Rasputin_Vol said:
I never said they did.

This was about them agreeing to a ceasefire, just like German is trying to negotiate a ceasefire with Ukraine.

Also, why is there a double standard at this point?
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Seems to me that if those terms are accurate, Germany is saying Ukraine should just concede Crimea to Russia. In other words, Germany seems to be negotiating the national boundaries of another country with an opposing country like way back in the days of colonialism.

Now, you and I know, the Germans know, the Russians know, and even the Ukrainians know that Crimea is gone. It will never be Ukrainian again; however, that doesn't mean Ukraine should just roll over and accept it like a dog. What next? The Donbass? One also wonders how the "devolved powers" in the Donbass will actually work out.

Regarding why there's a double-standard: because we think we're better than everyone else. But you already knew that.
 
#3,765
#3,765
Rasputin_Vol said:
I would agree that Russia and China in particular have a great deal to work on, the United States over the last decade has moved further away from our Constitutional origins and is gradually becoming the police state that we feared would happen if Communists took over during the McCarthy Era.

I say all that to say that the US isn't exactly a bastion of liberty anymore, either.
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Were we ever really a bastion of liberty at any point in time? I suppose at one point before sophisticated technological surveillance we were as long as one was a white male.
 
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#3,766
#3,766
Rasputin_Vol said:
I would agree that Russia and China in particular have a great deal to work on, the United States over the last decade has moved further away from our Constitutional origins and is gradually becoming the police state that we feared would happen if Communists took over during the McCarthy Era.

I say all that to say that the US isn't exactly a bastion of liberty anymore, either.
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What countries would you rank higher than the US as having more liberty?
 
#3,767
#3,767
volprof said:
Seems to me that if those terms are accurate, Germany is saying Ukraine should just concede Crimea to Russia. In other words, Germany seems to be negotiating the national boundaries of another country with an opposing country like way back in the days of colonialism.
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Way back? We do the same thing with israel and the palestinians RIGHT NOW. And again, the ceasefire agreement that the US State Department wants the 2 sides to agree upon (as of last week) was an agreement that was negotiated by former Sec. of State Hillary Clinton and former president Mohammed Morsi of Egypt in 2012. The Israelis nor Palestinians weren't even involved in it.

yet, its OK for the US to negotiate ceasefires and draw borders of countries, yet Germany and Russia can't do it?
 
#3,768
#3,768
Danl said:
What countries would you rank higher than the US as having more liberty?
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Seems like there's a freedom index somewhere on these Internets, but I'll have to find it. Plus, it's only as good as its rankings module, whatever the hell composes it.
 
#3,769
#3,769
CNN is reporting that there's a Russian soldier (actual Russian military), now deemed, "Sgt. Selfie," because he takes so many "selfies" of himself and posts them to VK (Russian "Facebook"). TIFWIW, but apparently some of his photos have revealed him "to be on the wrong side of the border."

Might just be another American conspiracy though.
 
#3,770
#3,770
Rasputin_Vol said:
Way back? We do the same thing with israel and the palestinians RIGHT NOW. And again, the ceasefire agreement that the US State Department wants the 2 sides to agree upon (as of last week) was an agreement that was negotiated by former Sec. of State Hillary Clinton and former president Mohammed Morsi of Egypt in 2012. The Israelis nor Palestinians weren't even involved in it.

yet, its OK for the US to negotiate ceasefires and draw borders of countries, yet Germany and Russia can't do it?
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I'm not an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because there are only so many hours in ones life, hours which I don't particularly feel like wasting with that god-forsaken craphole over there, but...

I'm not sure that any "negotiating" of borders has occurred without consulting both sides of that particular conflict. You can claim Israel is an illegitimate state or that Palestine is a fabrication of nationality (since it never existed in the first place as a coherent nation) and that the US negotiating these things is an attempt to alter borders, but I guess I just see it fundamentally different from this German/Russian negotiating concerning Ukraine.
 
#3,772
#3,772
volprof said:
I'm not an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because there are only so many hours in ones life, hours which I don't particularly feel like wasting with that god-forsaken craphole over there, but...

I'm not sure that any "negotiating" of borders has occurred without consulting both sides of that particular conflict. You can claim Israel is an illegitimate state or that Palestine is a fabrication of nationality (since it never existed in the first place as a coherent nation) and that the US negotiating these things is an attempt to alter borders, but I guess I just see it fundamentally different from this German/Russian negotiating concerning Ukraine.
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The similarity comes in when you stated that germany has no right to negotiate the terms of an agreement that involves another country, and I turned around and pointed out that the US does the exact same thing. I used the 2012 ceasefire agreement as my example from just last week... but there are dozens more examples of us getting involved in border disputes and ceasefire agreements. Hell, the US State Department is involved in The Ukraine ceasefire and border dispute... So it's OK for Victoria Nuland and John Kerry to be seated at the negotiating table with Russia and The Ukraine, but Angela merkel and Germany can't be there?

Really??? And Germany has a lot more at stake directly with this conflict than the US.
 
#3,773
#3,773
Rasputin_Vol said:
The similarity comes in when you stated that germany has no right to negotiate the terms of an agreement that involves another country, and I turned around and pointed out that the US does the exact same thing. I used the 2012 ceasefire agreement as my example from just last week... but there are dozens more examples of us getting involved in border disputes and ceasefire agreements. Hell, the US State Department is involved in The Ukraine ceasefire and border dispute... So it's OK for Victoria Nuland and John Kerry to be seated at the negotiating table with Russia and The Ukraine, but Angela merkel and Germany can't be there?

Really??? And Germany has a lot more at stake directly with this conflict than the US.
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I'm not sure we're on the same page or that we have been at any point during this debate. I don't recall having said that Germany shouldn't be allowed to negotiate this crisis. My concerns are with it negotiating borders without consulting Ukraine. If Ukraine says, "Hey, Germany, go for it! We don't care about Crimea anymore," then so be it.
 
#3,774
#3,774
volprof said:
I'm not an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because there are only so many hours in ones life...
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All I ask for is 2-3 minutes.

No Gaza cease-fire: Dramatic shift in Egypt deprived Kerry of vital tool (+video) - CSMonitor.com

“In 2012 you had [former Egyptian President] Mohamed Morsi, an indispensable interlocutor who could work with Hamas and deliver them” on a cease-fire agreement, says Daniel Levy, director of the Middle East and North Africa Program at the European Council on Foreign Relations in London. “Today, under [Egyptian President Abdel Fattah] al-Sisi, you have an Egypt taking sides against Hamas.”
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So you still have the US trying to coax Egypt into settling a dispute between Hamas and Israel. Yet, we are upset at Germany??? I don't understand the double standard... or why there is a double standard.
 
#3,775
#3,775
volprof said:
I'm not sure we're on the same page or that we have been at any point during this debate. I don't recall having said that Germany shouldn't be allowed to negotiate this crisis. My concerns are with it negotiating borders without consulting Ukraine. If Ukraine says, "Hey, Germany, go for it! We don't care about Crimea anymore," then so be it.
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1. How do you (or any of us) know that they haven't?
2. Even if they haven't, that is still splitting hairs and exposes the double standard.
 
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