IRS admits to targeting Conservative groups

#1,427
#1,427
I saw just a moment ago on C-span2 where Elijah Cummings was just about to cry because of how Commissioner John Koskinen was being drilled from the lawmakers today. Bless his little heart. Then when Cummings was through he got up & left the meeting. Of course it's getting late on the Hill & some have to get up pretty early in the morning to come back & sit around & do nothing again the next day.
 
#1,428
#1,428
volinbham said:
The IRS was notified and you did not know that. In fact one of your arguments was that there was no shenanigans since the IRS DIDN'T know about a Congressional investigation at the time of the crash.

I've added an important fact to your analysis.
Click to expand...

June 3, 2011
Chairman Camp sends letter to Commissioner Shulman inquiring about IRS targeting of taxpayers who donated money to conservative groups, as well as information regarding audits of 501(c)(4) organizations.

See the letter here. Note what is requested from the IRS.

Camp Demands IRS Answer Questions About Gift Tax Investigation | House Committee on Ways & Means


On June 14, 2011, Lois Lerner notifies IRS that her computer "crashed" on June 13, 2011, making all of her emails "unrecoverable."

June 3, 2011 to June 13, 2011, 10 days.

Another amazing and unfortunate circumstance.
 
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#1,429
#1,429
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
I saw just a moment ago on C-span2 where Elijah Cummings was just about to cry because of how Commissioner John Koskinen was being drilled from the lawmakers today. Bless his little heart. Then when Cummings was through he got up & left the meeting. Of course it's getting late on the Hill & some have to get up pretty early in the morning to come back & sit around & do nothing again the next day.
Click to expand...


He's another lying sob..
 

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#1,431
#1,431
volinbham said:
The IRS was notified and you did not know that. In fact one of your arguments was that there was no shenanigans since the IRS DIDN'T know about a Congressional investigation at the time of the crash.

I've added an important fact to your analysis.
Click to expand...

That's not what you claimed. You claimed -twice- that Lerner was notified before the crash. That is not accurate.

For the hundredth time, I agree it looks bad. I agree they should have the emails on off site storage. I agree they should have told. Congress earlier.

But what is just so tiresome is the jump from that to the conclusion she or someone else. Intentionally trashed her computer. I am perfectly ok with asking questions about that. Makes sense. But I also think it's wrong to simply skip over the evidence part of the claim.
 
#1,433
#1,433
lawgator1 said:
I don't know how else I can say this. I am not forgiving the loss of the emails. I am not overlooking anything. I am simply distinguishing between the loss of the emails and the enormous leap of logic you make that it was purposeful.

For one thing, the agency has provided evidence that the that the computer crash happened in 2011, well before anyone even knew this was a controversy. How do you answer that point if your insinuation is that they were disposed of on purpose? I've asked that question here several times and no one ever answers it, except to reiterate that the email server should still have them.

But the email server was a third party contractor who says they dispose of emails on like a 6 month rotating basis. Is that a good thing? No. A violation of internal rules about record keeping? I don't know.

But it takes a lot of supposition and speculation on your part to conclude that Lois Lerner or someone else in 2011, before anyone had a clue this was an issue, intentionally trashed her computer, that they had before then hired a third party contractor for the entire agency to handle emails knowing they wouldn't keep them, and then had some group of people in the FBI do a fake effort at trying to get them back from her hard drive.

This is constantly the problem with these GOP gotchas! Once the smoke of the rhetoric clears, and the cries of "scandal!" calm down to let's actually look at this, you start to run into facts that just don;t jibe with the cocktail you are trying to serve up here.
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The first letters from the House Ways and Means Committee were sent on June 3, 2011, Lerner's computer (and 6 other IRS officials) crashed about a week and a half later. So, you are right, the world didn't know this was a controversy at the time, but I'm not buying the coincidence.

edit for a link: BREAKING: Lerner’s Computer Mysteriously Crashed 10 DAYS After House Leaders Asked About Targeting | The Gateway Pundit
 
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#1,436
#1,436
I'm with LG. The IRS clearly deserves the benefit of the doubt. After all, it's not like this administration has made it a consistent tactic to hide the truth from the American public.

Oh wait...... that's exactly what they've done. Just how much can you honestly sweep under the rug before you have to start coming clean.
 
#1,438
#1,438
When the time comes, I'm sure there are some conservative low-level staffers at the IRS who would be more than happy to use their role to target liberal groups. The precedent had been set so there can be no whining from the left when it happens
 
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#1,439
#1,439
utvolpj said:
When the time comes, I'm sure there are some conservative low-level staffers at the IRS who would be more than happy to use their role to target liberal groups. The precedent had been set so there can be no whining from the left when it happens
Click to expand...

Conservatives don't have the stones.
 
#1,440
#1,440
Weezer said:
I'm with LG. The IRS clearly deserves the benefit of the doubt. After all, it's not like this administration has made it a consistent tactic to hide the truth from the American public.

Oh wait...... that's exactly what they've done. Just how much can you honestly sweep under the rug before you have to start coming clean.
Click to expand...


So now the IRS = "the administration."

I think I am seeing the GOP game plan here.
 
#1,441
#1,441
I heard this morning on tv that the White House has already produced emails it had with the IRS, which would seem to address the claim that the White House was coordinating Lerner's actions. Is that correct?
 
#1,442
#1,442
lawgator1 said:
I heard this morning on tv that the White House has already produced emails it had with the IRS, which would seem to address the claim that the White House was coordinating Lerner's actions. Is that correct?
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You think the WH would self report?

Easy to produce emails that back up your claim of not being involved when there is (supposedly) no way to retrieve the other person's emails.
 
#1,443
#1,443
How can you walk into a hearing on Capitol Hill and fall into a trap like this? Is it that difficult to cut off this grandstanding crap with, "I cannot cite specific sections of federal code, however we have constantly reviewed our practices with legal counsel to ensure that people's rights are protected."

"You have already said, multiple times today, that there was no evidence that you found of any criminal wrongdoing," Gowdy said. "I want you to tell me: What criminal statutes you have evaluated?"

"I have not looked at any," the IRS commissioner admitted.

"Well then how can you possibly tell our fellow citizens that there is no criminal wrongdoing if you don't even know what statutes to look at?" Gowdy followed-up.

"Because I've seen no evidence that anyone consciously --"

"Well how would you know what elements of the crime existed? You don't even know what statutes are in play," Gowdy said, visibly annoyed. "I'm going to ask you again: What statutes have you evaluated?"

"Uh," the IRS commissioner stumbled, "I think you can rely on common sense--"

"Common sense? Instead of the criminal code, you want to rely on common sense? No, Mr. Koskinen, you can shake your head all you want to, commissioner. You have said today that there's no evidence of criminal wrongdoing and I'm asking you what criminal statutes you have reviewed to reach that conclusion."

"I reviewed no criminal statutes," said the IRS commissioner.
Click to expand...
 
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#1,446
#1,446
GAVol said:
How can you walk into a hearing on Capitol Hill and fall into a trap like this?
Click to expand...

Actually the look on his face when he was asked whether or not he was aware that over a thousand IRS employees got a bonus that also owed back taxes was priceless.
 
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#1,447
#1,447
GAVol said:
How can you walk into a hearing on Capitol Hill and fall into a trap like this? Is it that difficult to cut off this grandstanding crap with, "I cannot cite specific sections of federal code, however we have constantly reviewed our practices with legal counsel to ensure that people's rights are protected."
Click to expand...

Easy if you simply don't care. No one gets fired so you show up, take the beating and go back to collecting an inflated paycheck from the taxpayers. Good gig if you can get it
 
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#1,448
#1,448
lawgator1 said:
That's not what you claimed. You claimed -twice- that Lerner was notified before the crash. That is not accurate.

For the hundredth time, I agree it looks bad. I agree they should have the emails on off site storage. I agree they should have told. Congress earlier.

But what is just so tiresome is the jump from that to the conclusion she or someone else. Intentionally trashed her computer. I am perfectly ok with asking questions about that. Makes sense. But I also think it's wrong to simply skip over the evidence part of the claim.
Click to expand...

And you claimed the IRS didn't know about a Congressional investigation at the time of the crash so the two could not be linked. You drew a conclusion here without having all the evidence.

I'm not saying she trashed it. I was stating a fact that the IRS was aware of the investigation. In all likelihood she was aware since the investigation centered on the division she headed.

You've also stated several times that the FBI tried to retrieve the data but in testimony last night the acting Commissioner went through what was done and the drive was not review by the FBI that I can tell. Can you provide evidence that it was?

and then had some group of people in the FBI do a fake effort at trying to get them back from her hard drive.
Click to expand...
 
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#1,449
#1,449
volinbham said:
And you claimed the IRS didn't know about a Congressional investigation at the time of the crash so the two could not be linked. You drew a conclusion here without having all the evidence.

I'm not saying she trashed it. I was stating a fact that the IRS was aware of the investigation. In all likelihood she was aware since the investigation centered on the division she headed.

You've also stated several times that the FBI tried to retrieve the data but in testimony last night the acting Commissioner went through what was done and the drive was not review by the FBI that I can tell. Can you provide evidence that it was?
Click to expand...

Gowdy made the reference to spoliation of evidence in reference to the computer files.

LG, care to comment on Gowdy's legal skills yet again?
 
#1,450
#1,450
volinbham said:
I'm not saying she trashed it. I was stating a fact that the IRS was aware of the investigation. In all likelihood she was aware since the investigation centered on the division she headed.
Click to expand...


1) That is EXACTLY what you said.

2) Now you are changing your claim to be one based on speculation because "in all likelihood" she knew.

How about let's get some facts before we jump off into "in all likelihood" land?
 
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