IRS admits to targeting Conservative groups

#1,401
#1,401
Grand Vol said:
LG, will you ever admit that something shady just might, maybe, possibly be going on?
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Might? Maybe? Possibly?

I've already said here time and time again that it is possible and I don't blame people asking questions about it.

But there is a difference between sober, level headed inquiry designed to actually get to the truth of the matter, versus the shrieking banshee GOP let-me-get-on-tv tripe we've seen so far, where the correct conclusion driven by the actual facts is utterly irrelevant, and/or the inconvenient facts are ignored, and/or facts are simply made up.

That does not just annoy me as a lawyer, though it does. It annoys me as a human being.
 
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#1,402
#1,402
lawgator1 said:
Might? Maybe? Possibly?

I've already said here time and time again that it is possible and I don't blame people asking questions about it.

But there is a difference between sober, level headed inquiry designed to actually get to the truth of the matter, versus the shrieking banshee GOP let-me-get-on-tv tripe we've seen so far, where the correct conclusion driven by the actual facts is utterly irrelevant, and/or the inconvenient facts are ignored, and/or facts are simply made up.

That does not just annoy me as a lawyer, though it does. It annoys me as a human being.
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So why do you keep reaching for every possible other explanation than what is readily apparent to most people? Other than your automatic partisan bias? Lehner takes the 5th, IRS looses emails that could detail the facts and either clear her or damn her. And with the timing on the "loss" my guess is it's the latter.

It annoys me as a former LEO to see evidence being covered up like this. And yes, they are being covered up in violation of federal law concerning document archives as I posted about earlier in this thread. If I had this happen I'd seriously be pushing for obstruction as the line the IRS is feeding the American people in this case are far too convenient for anyone to swallow.

It annoys me as a human being knowing our so called legal experts like you ignore the obvious and feel it's okay to do as long as it's not your party it happens to.
 
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#1,403
#1,403
lawgator1 said:
Might? Maybe? Possibly?

I've already said here time and time again that it is possible and I don't blame people asking questions about it.

But there is a difference between sober, level headed inquiry designed to actually get to the truth of the matter, versus the shrieking banshee GOP let-me-get-on-tv tripe we've seen so far, where the correct conclusion driven by the actual facts is utterly irrelevant, and/or the inconvenient facts are ignored, and/or facts are simply made up.

That does not just annoy me as a lawyer, though it does. It annoys me as a human being.
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Apparently it requires a little "shrieking" to get beyond the Dems "complete denial" that nothing had happened beyond one rogue agent in Cincinnati. And yet... look at how much has been revealed since the initial claim by the Dems that there was no cover up. How can a lawyer possibly be that gullible?
 
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#1,404
#1,404
Grand Vol said:
So why do you keep reaching for every possible other explanation than what is readily apparent to most people? Other than your automatic partisan bias? Lehner takes the 5th, IRS looses emails that could detail the facts and either clear her or damn her. And with the timing on the "loss" my guess is it's the latter.

It annoys me as a former LEO to see evidence being covered up like this. And yes, they are being covered up in violation of federal law concerning document archives as I posted about earlier in this thread. If I had this happen I'd seriously be pushing for obstruction as the line the IRS is feeding the American people in this case are far too convenient for anyone to swallow.

It annoys me as a human being knowing our so called legal experts like you ignore the obvious and feel it's okay to do as long as it's not your party it happens to.
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I think that what you perceive as it "appearing" that I'm "reaching" for innocuous explanations is because every other voice you hear on the board, plus the media you choose to take your cues from on a daily basis, are so tilted that it would appear I'm off on my own about this.

I think most rational people, like me -- that's right, me -- think that the IRS should be able to produce the emails. It is suspicious that they cannot. Questions should be asked.

But that does not mean that anyone ought to be jumping to conclusions, which is directly and exactly what is happening now. And the reason it is happening is because it is patently obvious that the GOP affirmatively, nay, desperately, wants there to be shenanigans.

The point of the inquiry should be to inquire, then reach conclusions. Not the other way around.
 
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#1,406
#1,406
lawgator1 said:
I think that what you perceive as it "appearing" that I'm "reaching" for innocuous explanations is because every other voice you hear on the board, plus the media you choose to take your cues from on a daily basis, are so tilted that it would appear I'm off on my own about this.

I think most rational people, like me -- that's right, me -- think that the IRS should be able to produce the emails. It is suspicious that they cannot. Questions should be asked.

But that does not mean that anyone ought to be jumping to conclusions, which is directly and exactly what is happening now. And the reason it is happening is because it is patently obvious that the GOP affirmatively, nay, desperately, wants there to be shenanigans.

The point of the inquiry should be to inquire, then reach conclusions. Not the other way around.
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And yet the President concluded that there wasn't a "smidgen" of corruption before a complete inquiry has been made and before subsequent "failures" to comply with requests to produce documents have ensued.
 
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#1,407
#1,407
lawgator1 said:
"Fired"

Jesus. Their contract ended. This is the kind of crap mischaracterization that ruins the right's already ruined credibility.
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Your quibble with the word of course misses the point.

Let's call it non-renewal of an annual contract that had been going on for 5 years or so.

The real point here is that it calls into question this notion that they just kept the emails on tape backups that were recycled every 6 months.

Presumably if they were contracting with an email back vendor from 2005 - 2011 they would be dropping that company and replacing it with another. At a minimum you'd think they'd ask the vendor for the archive from 2005 - 11 to transfer it to the new vendor or system? Will they say they just told the vendor to dump the back up and after not renewing with them they didn't use any back up vendor?

The big point is that the IRS is not being forthcoming with their email backup procedure. They've been asked for details about it but as of yet have not complied.
 
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#1,408
#1,408
lawgator1 said:
albert_einstein_act_223.jpg
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The IRS knew this Congressional inquiry was under way and it was the division she headed that was the subject of the inquiry.

You claimed earlier they just didn't know back then that this would come up. The IRS did know and it's near certainty that she did since it was her division that was subject to the inquiry.
 
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#1,409
#1,409
Bad News : It could take a decade to get to the bottom of "lost" IRS emails thanks to the people in Obama's pocket for covering up all this BS.
 
#1,410
#1,410
lawgator1 said:
I think that what you perceive as it "appearing" that I'm "reaching" for innocuous explanations is because every other voice you hear on the board, plus the media you choose to take your cues from on a daily basis, are so tilted that it would appear I'm off on my own about this.

I think most rational people, like me -- that's right, me -- think that the IRS should be able to produce the emails. It is suspicious that they cannot. Questions should be asked.

But that does not mean that anyone ought to be jumping to conclusions, which is directly and exactly what is happening now. And the reason it is happening is because it is patently obvious that the GOP affirmatively, nay, desperately, wants there to be shenanigans.

The point of the inquiry should be to inquire, then reach conclusions. Not the other way around.
Click to expand...

I'm not certain anyone would consider you "rational" in this whole thing. But you keep on keeping on.

And you generally have no idea who I get my news information from, so don't automatically assume it's Fox all the time.

And it's not that the GOP wants there to be shenanigans, but the simple facts that this appears to be a serious cover up that the public isn't buying is at the heart of the matter. I mean, seriously? With all the facts in the matter you still are reaching for every innocent explanation in this matter. And the facts:

1) Those emails are gone
2) Lehrner took the 5th
3) the IRS could have said months ago the emails were lost or at least told the appropriate committee that there were technical problems
4) members of the House committee were actively using the IRS to target their own political opposition
5) The IRS ignored federal law in the storage and documentation of said emails
6) Suspiciously the emails most sought after more than likely went outside the IRS
7) The explanations given about the "lost" emails aren't flying with anyone

Should all be a huge red flags in your "rational" thought process in this whole thing.
 
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#1,411
#1,411
Grand Vol said:
I'm not certain anyone would consider you "rational" in this whole thing. But you keep on keeping on.

And you generally have no idea who I get my news information from, so don't automatically assume it's Fox all the time.

And it's not that the GOP wants there to be shenanigans, but the simple facts that this appears to be a serious cover up that the public isn't buying is at the heart of the matter. I mean, seriously? With all the facts in the matter you still are reaching for every innocent explanation in this matter. And the facts:

1) Those emails are gone
2) Lehrner took the 5th
3) the IRS could have said months ago the emails were lost or at least told the appropriate committee that there were technical problems
4) members of the House committee were actively using the IRS to target their own political opposition
5) The IRS ignored federal law in the storage and documentation of said emails
6) Suspiciously the emails most sought after more than likely went outside the IRS
7) The explanations given about the "lost" emails aren't flying with anyone

Should all be a huge red flags in your "rational" thought process in this whole thing.
Click to expand...

I can add about 10 more red flags to your list and we'd still be short some.
 
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#1,416
#1,416
Grand Vol said:
I'm not certain anyone would consider you "rational" in this whole thing. But you keep on keeping on.

And you generally have no idea who I get my news information from, so don't automatically assume it's Fox all the time.

And it's not that the GOP wants there to be shenanigans, but the simple facts that this appears to be a serious cover up that the public isn't buying is at the heart of the matter. I mean, seriously? With all the facts in the matter you still are reaching for every innocent explanation in this matter. And the facts:

1) Those emails are gone



That is correct. And there should be questioning of that. I agree.



2) Lehrner took the 5th



If that is the standard, merely taking it when threatened, then all is lost. See the amendment.



3) the IRS could have said months ago the emails were lost




They were looking for as many as they could find.


or at least told the appropriate committee that there were technical problems



True.


4) members of the House committee were actively using the IRS to target their own political opposition



Huh?


5) The IRS ignored federal law in the storage and documentation of said emails


Ok. I do not believe the laws are criminal but I'm willing to listen.


6) Suspiciously the emails most sought after more than likely went outside the IRS


The emails that went internally have been found on other peoples computers and produced. Logically the ones that cannot be found are with outside people. That is not suspicious, it's an artifact of the problem.



7) The explanations given about the "lost" emails aren't flying with anyone



They aren't flying with people who want to assume the worst.


Should all be a huge red flags in your "rational" thought process in this whole thing.
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I'm waiting for the actual facts. But by all means just go ahead and conclude as you see fit before the facts are in.
 
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#1,421
#1,421
lawgator1 said:
Like how you say above that Lois Lerner was notified?

Lol. Ok.
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The IRS was notified and you did not know that. In fact one of your arguments was that there was no shenanigans since the IRS DIDN'T know about a Congressional investigation at the time of the crash.

I've added an important fact to your analysis.
 
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#1,422
#1,422
lawgator1 said:
I'm waiting for the actual facts. But by all means just go ahead and conclude as you see fit before the facts are in.
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I'll answer you remarks:

#2. So taking the 5th doesn't automatically mean she is guilty I agree. Just like invoking my 2nd Amendment Rights doesn't make me a killer or enabler of those that would do harm.

Anyway, what threat was she under prior to her being evasive? Did Issa or company threaten her prior to her refusing to answer questions to the proper government oversight? I'm assuming she was invoking this particualr portion:

nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself
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So if nothing criminal was going on, or potentially criminal, why did she require the use of the 5th Amendment?

#4. Elijah Cummings and/or staff contacting the IRS to look into groups in his district that were opposing him? Forgot about that already or swept it under the rug?

#5. I posted the links that it's Federal Law that all documentation, regardless of type, is required to be saved. You can look them up if you like. But the point that the IRS failed to do so.

#6. Answer me this Sparky, which agencies were they sent out to? That alone would start the ball rolling elsewhere.

#7. They aren't flying with anyone. Just many people, not unlike you, have their give-an-eff-ometer pegged and want this to go away.

So why do they want it to go away and furthermore, why continue trying to dismiss it?

I would like answers as well.
 
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#1,423
#1,423
volinbham said:
seems you are continually unaware of facts of the case; almost willfully unaware
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What's funny is the troll implies he has facts other than what has been presented by his continual denial of what has been presented. I want to see what makes him comfortable with continuing to claim this is a witch hunt when the alternate reality is becoming the real reality.
 
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#1,425
#1,425
lawgator1 said:
You might want to put that in context.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SWQ6UiEnDj0
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"Context" still doesn't help him or your position.

He still said it. He said in regards to the IRS "shenanigans." He said it before the latest "loss" of emails by Lenrner and 6 others involved.

He said it before a complete inquiry has been done.

For an inquiry to be "complete" all of the documents have to be provided for the time period involved which the IRS has failed to provide and now claim as "lost".

Gee, what an unfortunate state of unlikely circumstances.
 
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