Good article at explaining things

[UTProf]

A gregarious, energetic coach who gets the fans involved is great. My issue is with Hubbs's stance that that's the primary characteristic Hart should be looking for above all else.

Probably because Hart said this:

"You also want a person that brings a lot of energy and enthusiasm. Transitions aren't easy, regardless of the circumstances that may have brought you into a transition. They're difficult. You want somebody with knowledge of the game and you want somebody that can attract a very high-quality staff."

But I think folks are mistaken if they believe it's the only quality or that we have to choose between a showman and a good coach -- that's exaggerating the point to the extreme because that's what posters do on message boards but it's a false presentation of the argument. In a town that's football obsessed despite having a good basketball tradition, you absolutely need someone willing to sell the program and someone who can connect to fans be it through hair gel (donovan), icy stares of death (summitt), pure ringley bros (pearl), taking off a ref's head (jones) or whatever else manner a coach uses to make that connection and sell.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

I said mediocre and also mentioned emotion, did I not? However, what makes you think we have to choose.

You're reading in what isn't there.

No I'm not. You quoted my earlier post that was in reference to the article that basically said that the coach must be a "showman" to be accepted here. I'm saying that all a coach has to do is win. Since you disagreed, I'm simply asking you a question. If UT's coach won consistently and routinely made the ncaa tournament, would it bother you if he had no personality to speak of?

 

[Exfix]

Actually not a good article at all.

A) Green was ran out because he was a straight up ******* to the fan base. To the point of contempt. He was also far more successful than Martin, so combining their records is Hubbs trying to sell a bill of goods vs what Martin actually was here.

B) You need to win here. If you can do that and not insult the fans, you'll be fine. DeVoe was loved here when he was winning. Stokley was packed. He had the Anti-Mears personality.

C) Martin bailed. He wasn't fired. He quit, ran away. Saw the writing on the wall. Cashed in his chips. Any other cliche is fitting. His recruiting didn't have us in a position to maintain.

D) Most of the fan fervor had calmed down once we went on the winning streak. The fans didn't want sweet 16 Martin fired. They wanted "here we go again" Martin fired. Even his most ardent supporters on here said they were done after A&M pt 2.

I don't give one damn about unicycles or chest painting. I does help to do things like give a shout out to students. To reach back to the past and bring in former Vol legends. To be personable and get guest slots on shows like PTI. That raises your profile and aids in recruiting.

Recruit good players. Win basketball games. Don't commit dumbass violations. Don't go out of your way to insult the fan base.

Do those things and you'll be loved here. Lose games, fail to make the NCAAs year after year, you'll feel heat. It happens at every single school in every major conference that gives a whit about basketball.

This right here.

 

[UTProf]

No I'm not. You quoted my earlier post that was in reference to the article that basically said that the coach must be a "showman" to be accepted here. I'm saying that all a coach has to do is win. Since you disagreed, I'm simply asking you a question. If UT's coach won consistently and routinely made the ncaa tournament, would it bother you if he had no personality to speak of?

The argument isn't about me rather it's about the fanbase as a whole and what a coach needs to connect. I also clarified that it's not just showmanship but really some way of connecting and selling the program that a coach needs to gain this acceptance. IOW, a fan base must find a way to believe in that coach especially when times are difficult. It's easy to believe when times are good but good times aren't the issue.

 

[VolGee4]

Cuonzo Martin apparently has a great personality with recruits too, but people here did nothing but complain for three years about how lackluster and bland he was. Donovan doesn't do any of the cheerleading and carnival-barking that Hubbs writes about. Donovan boringly markets his program to a football-centric fanbase by going to the elite eight almost every year.

Martin apparently didn't have enough of a personality to recruit the players that would appease the fan base. There is a happy medium with all of this. How many coaches will paint their chest like Bruce Pearl? Probably just him. Part of that article was hyperbole. But, UT needs a coach who has charisma and will create some entertainment for the casual fans. Winning is an ingredient for that. Billy Donovan is not Bruce Pearl, but he isn't a dull individual either. He is engaging and well-liked by his peers. It isn't difficult to understand.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

The argument isn't about me rather it's about the fanbase as a whole and what a coach needs to connect. I also clarified that it's not just showmanship but really some way of connecting and selling the program that a coach needs to gain this acceptance. IOW, a fan base must find a way to believe in that coach especially when times are difficult. It's easy to believe when times are good but good times aren't the issue.

So if CCM still produced the same lackluster results but put on a three ring circus at TBA or ran around and whoopin and hollarin that would make fans want to connect with him?

 

[UTProf]

So if CCM still produced the same lackluster results but put on a three ring circus at TBA or ran around and whoopin and hollarin that would make fans want to connect with him?

You're caught up in an awful lot of hyperbole.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Martin apparently didn't have enough of a personality to recruit the players that would appease the fan base. There is a happy medium with all of this. How many coaches will paint their chest like Bruce Pearl? Probably just him. Part of that article was hyperbole. But, UT needs a coach who has charisma and will create some entertainment for the casual fans. Winning is an ingredient for that. Billy Donovan is not Bruce Pearl, but he isn't a dull individual either. He is engaging and well-liked by his peers. It isn't difficult to understand.

What do his peers have to do with it? Cuonzo Martin is well liked by his peers too. Hubbs isn't talking about how much genuine personality a coach has; he's talking about how much public marketing the guy does. Donovan doesn't do any of that. I don't know if you know any Florida fans, but they think Billy Donovan is boring as hell. And they wouldn't trade him.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

You're caught up in an awful lot of hyperbole.

No, but I will concede that a little personality goes a long way. However, personality is miniscule compared to overall effectiveness of a coach, ie his ability to win games....consistently!

 

[Vercingetorix]

Probably because Hart said this:



But I think folks are mistaken if they believe it's the only quality or that we have to choose between a showman and a good coach -- that's exaggerating the point to the extreme because that's what posters do on message boards but it's a false presentation of the argument. In a town that's football obsessed despite having a good basketball tradition, you absolutely need someone willing to sell the program and someone who can connect to fans be it through hair gel (donovan), icy stares of death (summitt), pure ringley bros (pearl), taking off a ref's head (jones) or whatever else manner a coach uses to make that connection and sell.

I'm not exaggerating to make a point. I'm directly responding to the content of the article, in which Hubbs argues that the primary characteristic of a UT basketball coach needs to be "putting on a show." I do not have a Rivals subscription, so perhaps he gets around to talking about actual basketball later in the article.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

What do his peers have to do with it? Cuonzo Martin is well liked by his peers too. Hubbs isn't talking about how much genuine personality a coach has; he's talking about how much public marketing the guy does. Donovan doesn't do any of that. I don't know if you know any Florida fans, but they think Billy Donovan is boring as hell. And they wouldn't trade him.

this!

 

[UTProf]

No, but I will concede that a little personality goes a long way. However, personality is miniscule compared to overall effectiveness of a coach, ie his ability to win games....consistently!

Again, it's easy in good times. In good times no one cares but we're not talking about good times. People believe in Jones despite having the same record as Dooley because his personality, connection with fans, and selling of the program gives them faith that things will get better. A coach has to give a fanbase something to believe in during hard and even when they've transitioned to better/mediocre times than when they started fans need a reason to believe he/she can reach consistently winning and/or championship times.

We're going into a time of transition with what looks to be a bad roster, we may lose even more recruits to our former coach or other coaches waiting to snatch them up during the turmoil, and whoever the new coach is he's going to have to sell the future and the idea that things will get better or IOW, give fans a reason to believe.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

Again, it's easy in good times. In good times no one cares but we're not talking about good times. People believe in Jones despite having the same record as Dooley because his personality, connection with fans, and selling of the program gives them faith that things will get better. A coach has to give a fanbase something to believe in during hard and even when they've transitioned to better/mediocre times than when they started fans need a reason to believe he/she can reach consistently winning and/or championship times.

We're going into a time of transition with what looks to be a bad roster, we may lose even more recruits to our former coach or other coaches waiting to snatch them up during the turmoil, and whoever the new coach is he's going to have to sell the future and the idea that things will get better or IOW, give fans a reason to believe.

The reason people back Jones is because they can see improvement on the field. Last year he may have had the same overall record but he beat a highly ranked opponent with less talent coupled with a stellar recruiting class. CCM on the other hand has been marred by inconsistency and continual slide down in recruiting. Another difference between Jones and CCM is that when UT lost to Oregon last year, Jones repeatedly said "as coaches we _________", and kept referring back to the coaches. CCM ability to never accept responsibility as a coach for his team's performance and his inability to do anything about it is why fans had a hard time accepting him. If he had come in here and won fans would be saying "Bruce who?" Don't forget that CCM is what brought on the tough times that make it hard for fans to support him that you speak of.

 

[goodnight_vol]

People seem to think we're choosing between known clowns and proven winners.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Again, it's easy in good times. In good times no one cares but we're not talking about good times. People believe in Jones despite having the same record as Dooley because his personality, connection with fans, and selling of the program gives them faith that things will get better. A coach has to give a fanbase something to believe in during hard and even when they've transitioned to better/mediocre times than when they started fans need a reason to believe he/she can reach consistently winning and/or championship times.

We're going into a time of transition with what looks to be a bad roster, we may lose even more recruits to our former coach or other coaches waiting to snatch them up during the turmoil, and whoever the new coach is he's going to have to sell the future and the idea that things will get better or IOW, give fans a reason to believe.

This is not football. You can turn it around with just a couple of players; it shouldn't take four years to turn it around. If you worry about hiring a coach to "get you through the mediocre times" rather than hiring whichever coach you think can start winning the fastest then you've already lost.

 

[Kusotate]

Funny that so many people feel the need to hire a circus clown to entertain them rather than hire a solid top coach.

I agree, it makes you wonder if UT fans and admin are looking for a basketball coach or a court jester

 

[drewtigeralum]

The reason people back Jones is because they can see improvement on the field. Last year he may have had the same overall record but he beat a highly ranked opponent with less talent coupled with a stellar recruiting class. CCM on the other hand has been marred by inconsistency and continual slide down in recruiting. Another difference between Jones and CCM is that when UT lost to Oregon last year, Jones repeatedly said "as coaches we _________", and kept referring back to the coaches. CCM ability to never accept responsibility as a coach for his team's performance and his inability to do anything about it is why fans had a hard time accepting him. If he had come in here and won fans would be saying "Bruce who?" Don't forget that CCM is what brought on the tough times that make it hard for fans to support him that you speak of.

Could you please explain this quote from Coach Martin before the Mercer game, in terms of

"CCM ability to never accept responsibility as a coach for his team's performance"

COACH MARTIN: I think we didn't have the consistency throughout games. I think down the stretch in games, not having enough time or reps together as a team down the stretch of games to win ball games, all those things. Not necessarily any player. I take total responsibility for every game we lose. I take total responsibility. For the wins, the guys can have those.

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[VolGee4]

What do his peers have to do with it? Cuonzo Martin is well liked by his peers too. Hubbs isn't talking about how much genuine personality a coach has; he's talking about how much public marketing the guy does. Donovan doesn't do any of that. I don't know if you know any Florida fans, but they think Billy Donovan is boring as hell. And they wouldn't trade him.

We obviously aren't getting anywhere with this discussion. Martin does not interact with his peers like a Billy Donovan does. Donovan has run a coaching seminar for fellow coaches, and Gary Parrish will tell you what kind of person Donovan is. I don't agree that Martin and Donovan are in the same mold. Again, Hubbs' article was partly hyperbole, that must have gone past you. Hubbs was not strictly talking marketing either. He was talking charisma, likeable, energetic, relating to the fans, etc. Bruce Pearl is one end of the spectrum; Cuonzo Martin is on the other. Billy Donovan is in the middle. UT needs someone that is at least in the middle with winning a part of that.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

Could you please explain this quote from Coach Martin before the Mercer game, in terms of

"CCM ability to never accept responsibility as a coach for his team's performance"

COACH MARTIN: I think we didn't have the consistency throughout games. I think down the stretch in games, not having enough time or reps together as a team down the stretch of games to win ball games, all those things. Not necessarily any player. I take total responsibility for every game we lose. I take total responsibility. For the wins, the guys can have those.

I'll hang up and listen.

So after three years I guess one of his assistants finally let him in on a little secret. And its funny he would mention losing after a win and with the petition floating around. Would have been nice to have that kind of attitude three years ago huh?

 

[VolGee4]

I'm not exaggerating to make a point. I'm directly responding to the content of the article, in which Hubbs argues that the primary characteristic of a UT basketball coach needs to be "putting on a show." I do not have a Rivals subscription, so perhaps he gets around to talking about actual basketball later in the article.

You are taking it too literal. Because we place so much emphasis on football, we have casual basketball fans. To maximize success and money, we need to engage those "fringe" fans. Winning is very much a part of that. But, Hubbs is also saying that, at UT, we also need a coach who has all of the qualities that I mentioned above- charisma, relates to you, will be on radio shows, etc. Basically, a clone of Butch Jones. We don't have to have a "circus" or "chest painting" but UT needs more than just a basketball coach. Pretty simple.

 

[Vercingetorix]

We obviously aren't getting anywhere with this discussion. Martin does not interact with his peers like a Billy Donovan does. Donovan has run a coaching seminar for fellow coaches, and Gary Parrish will tell you what kind of person Donovan is. I don't agree that Martin and Donovan are in the same mold. Again, Hubbs' article was partly hyperbole, that must have gone past you. Hubbs was not strictly talking marketing either. He was talking charisma, likeable, energetic, relating to the fans, etc. Bruce Pearl is one end of the spectrum; Cuonzo Martin is on the other. Billy Donovan is in the middle. UT needs someone that is at least in the middle with winning a part of that.

Yes, the way that you're waving around Billy Donovan's coaching seminars as though they're in any way comparable to the sort of rah-rah public cheerleading efforts Hubbs wrote about is a pretty good indicator that we're never going to get anywhere.

 

[drewtigeralum]

So after three years I guess one of his assistants finally let him in on a little secret. And its funny he would mention losing after a win and with the petition floating around. Would have been nice to have that kind of attitude three years ago huh?

So, what you're saying is that you were wrong?

 

[UTProf]

This is not football. You can turn it around with just a couple of players. If you worry about hiring a coach to "get you through the mediocre times" rather than trying to get the coach who can start winning games the fastest then you've already lost.

You must not remember the decades before Pearl. You have no idea how empty TBA or awful man's basketball can get. Our repeated coaching failures and on court failures in basketball should be all the proof you need to know that consistently grabbing turnaround talent is far from easy. Hell most of UT's basketball history has been mediocre and some of it has been flatout awful. It's only been the last decade that it was watchable/good.

Unless you think UT men's basketball is suddenly going to turn into UK's and routinely make the final 4 and win Championships, you have to find a way to get butts into seats and keep them there and right now THAT is a priority for the AD. Further, until and unless a dominant program is built we're not going to be grabbing all the 5* talent that turns programs around in a blink and keeps them on top. UT has a great basketball tradition but we do not have an elite tradition and being good is a relatively new thing for UT. Whoever is hired is going to have to put in the hard work to build a dominant program rather than rely on landing classes like UK gets - those kind of classes will come when the wins do.

We're not so fortunate as to be able to rely on the magic bullet of a single class right now - those classes go to schools who have a much bigger tradition in winning. Instead, it's hard work for us.

 

[UTProf]

You are taking it too literal. Because we place so much emphasis on football, we have casual basketball fans. To maximize success and money, we need to engage those "fringe" fans. Winning is very much a part of that. But, Hubbs is also saying that, at UT, we also need a coach who has all of the qualities that I mentioned above- charisma, relates to you, will be on radio shows, etc. Basically, a clone of Butch Jones. We don't have to have a "circus" or "chest painting" but UT needs more than just a basketball coach. Pretty simple.

^This x1000

 

[SuperDave]

What good college coach is an example? Someone who has at least made a Final Four.