What is Tom Brady's place among the 5 greatest QBs in NFL history?

[Volizona]

I think the biggest thing in these debates is you gotta look at how much better a guy was vs. his peers and then consider how good his peers are/were.

Peyton Manning was head and shoulders above everybody not named Brady in a strong league and Brady was head and shoulders above him. Unitas was head and shoulders above everybody but not sure how strong the league was. Elway, Marino, and Montana were all kind of debatable in a strong league.

It just feels like it's gotta be Brady, no matter what the rule changes are.

Apply this to all GOAT debates. MJ was head and shoulders above everybody, but the league was almost completely devoid of big, quality guards to thwart him. He dominated more than Lebron does, but Lebron still dominates and the league is built to thwart a big wing/forward. The Warriors in one finals had more quality defenders to throw at Lebron than MJ saw against 5 finals opponents combined. So who is it. I know everybody is going to say MJ, but is it? Was it really that hard to shoot over little John Starks and Joe Dumars and Byron Scott and Hersey Hawkins and Jeff Hornacek and Kevin Johnson and so on?

Brady was not head and shoulders above Manning and other peers like Rogers and Brees stat wise. The only area he was above his peers was his team’s Super Bowl record and that will always be the debate. Brady’s stats during the Pats first three SB seasons were below the league average. Manning won more MVPs which suggest he was more valuable to his team. Rogers has as many MVPs if not more than Brady- can’t remember. Sorry, the Pats were going to win the first 3 SBs with or without Brady and certainly the SB vs the Rams with only 13 points.

 

[SCRocket]

1

 

[butchna]

Brady was not head and shoulders above Manning and other peers like Rogers and Brees stat wise. The only area he was above his peers was his team’s Super Bowl record and that will always be the debate. Brady’s stats during the Pats first three SB seasons were below the league average. Manning won more MVPs which suggest he was more valuable to his team. Rogers has as many MVPs if not more than Brady- can’t remember. Sorry, the Pats were going to win the first 3 SBs with or without Brady and certainly the SB vs the Rams with only 13 points.

This season was the first Belichick Pats team to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS without Brady as the QB. Between two franchises, he has one playoff victory without him. Don’t share your eventuality outlook pending lack of evidence.

 

[Boston Vol]

Brady was not head and shoulders above Manning and other peers like Rogers and Brees stat wise. The only area he was above his peers was his team’s Super Bowl record and that will always be the debate. Brady’s stats during the Pats first three SB seasons were below the league average. Manning won more MVPs which suggest he was more valuable to his team. Rogers has as many MVPs if not more than Brady- can’t remember. Sorry, the Pats were going to win the first 3 SBs with or without Brady and certainly the SB vs the Rams with only 13 points.

So the Patriots would have won the first three Super Bowls with Drew Bledsoe as their starting quarterback? That’s interesting given that they started 0-2 in 2001 and looked dreadful on offense against the Bengals and Jets.

 

[n_huffhines]

Brady was not head and shoulders above Manning and other peers like Rogers and Brees stat wise. The only area he was above his peers was his team’s Super Bowl record and that will always be the debate. Brady’s stats during the Pats first three SB seasons were below the league average. Manning won more MVPs which suggest he was more valuable to his team. Rogers has as many MVPs if not more than Brady- can’t remember. Sorry, the Pats were going to win the first 3 SBs with or without Brady and certainly the SB vs the Rams with only 13 points.

Individual awards are nice, but Brady has the hardware there, too with only Peyton on his level in that department. He's above them all with regard to career individual stats and he's way above them in team success, so yeah, head and shoulders.

 

[Boston Vol]

The biggest delta between QBs of old vs current is yards per completion. All of the old QBs threw down the field more because they had to. They couldnt stand there and throw 5 yard passes all day like modern QBs since the defense could flatten receivers at the line and basically do whatever they wanted to. Statistics in the modern game are overinflated due to new rules enabling constant dinking and dunking. Find a great QB of old who has a lower yard per completion % than Brady. He has thrived on short passes and yards after the catch more than anyone. I’m not talking about yards per attempt which is inflated due to short passes resulting in higher completion %s. Yes, Brady has had a great career but I think he gets way overinflated based on the era he plays in the short pass offenses he has played in. Nobody is going to change my opinion that there were many QBs as good or better than him in the old days and that is true for some of todays QBs as well. Sorry, I just haven’t seen him forced to make a lot of difficult throws over his career.

The reason that you don’t want to talk about yards per attempt is that when you were still posting under your old account you trumpeted yards per attempt, until I pointed out to you that Brady and Manning had virtually the same yards per attempt for their career and were both ranked behind about 100 other guys in that category.

 

[butchna]

Individual awards are nice, but Brady has the hardware there, too with only Peyton on his level in that department. He's above them all with regard to career individual stats and he's way above them in team success, so yeah, head and shoulders.

MVP is such a Mr. Congenial factor in grading players. It shows how popular they are and not always the quality of their season. Manning outperformed McNair in the season they shared a MVP. Joe Montana "only" won Best In Show twice and those towards the end of his time in San Francisco. Brett Favre was a great player but was he that much better (if at all) due to one more won popularity contest? How much of a scrub is Dan Marino for only tying a KICKER with one MVP? Same spare as John Elway. Contrived science is contrived.

 

[butchna]

The reason that you don’t want to talk about yards per attempt is that when you were still posting under your old account you trumpeted yards per attempt, until I pointed out to you that Brady and Manning had virtually the same yards per attempt for their career and were both ranked behind about 100 other guys in that category.

Sounded like the Phoenix guy...same state even.

 

[Boston Vol]

The biggest delta between QBs of old vs current is yards per completion. All of the old QBs threw down the field more because they had to. They couldnt stand there and throw 5 yard passes all day like modern QBs since the defense could flatten receivers at the line and basically do whatever they wanted to. Statistics in the modern game are overinflated due to new rules enabling constant dinking and dunking. Find a great QB of old who has a lower yard per completion % than Brady. He has thrived on short passes and yards after the catch more than anyone. I’m not talking about yards per attempt which is inflated due to short passes resulting in higher completion %s. Yes, Brady has had a great career but I think he gets way overinflated based on the era he plays in the short pass offenses he has played in. Nobody is going to change my opinion that there were many QBs as good or better than him in the old days and that is true for some of todays QBs as well. Sorry, I just haven’t seen him forced to make a lot of difficult throws over his career.

And you sure that you want to do yards per completion? Peyton Manning has a career yards per completion of 7.7, Tom Brady checks in at 7.5. So obviously there’s a world of difference between the two….oh and you want a great quarterback(s) with a lower ypc than Brady? How about Marino, Elway, Kelly, Moon, Favre, Luck, Aikman, Cunningham…..there’s a lot more, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll stop here.

 

[Volizona]

And you sure that you want to do yards per completion? Peyton Manning has a career yards per completion of 7.7, Tom Brady checks in at 7.5. So obviously there’s a world of difference between the two….oh and you want a great quarterback(s) with a lower ypc than Brady? How about Marino, Elway, Kelly, Moon, Favre, Luck, Aikman, Cunningham…..there’s a lot more, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll stop here.

I was never trying to argue Brady vs Manning or compare modern QBs against each other. I was trying to compare the old school guys from the 70s, 80s and early 90s before a lot of the rule changes. They threw down the field a lot more than today’s QBs who throw a lot more short passes because they can. I was thinking Staubach, Fouts, Stabler, Bradshaw and those guys. I am very surprised that Marino had a lower yards per completion avg than Marino but if so I stand corrected. My only comparison between Manning and Brady was that their stats aren’t very different. It is only their SB rings that separate them and you know my option on that. Brady gets credit for being a competitive guy but I don’t think he single handedly won all of those SBs and yes, I think Bledsoe would have won all three of the Pats first 3 SBs because their teams were great. Sorry, I know I’m in the minority. I think Brady has been a fine QB but my opinion is that has not necessarily the Greatest I have ever seen. I respect your opinions but my opinion won’t change on this subject. I have seen better than Manning too.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Exactly!

Ok. Top 20 then.

 

[SamRebel35]

All things held equal, I'll take Manning or Montana in their primes over anybody else. Hard to argue against Brady because of the Superbowls and his longevity. However, being that two things can be true simultaneously, I think Brady was both: 1) very very good at being a QB and 2) very very fortunate to have teamed up with Belichick and the Patriots in that era. In his situation, I truly believe that Manning or Montana could have equaled his output on the hardware tally and would have done it with individual position statistics that exceed Brady's. And sure that's speculation, but it is also speculation to assume that nobody could ever have done what Brady did given the same opportunities and circumstances.

 

[zjcvols]

All things held equal, I'll take Manning or Montana in their primes over anybody else. Hard to argue against Brady because of the Superbowls and his longevity. However, being that two things can be true simultaneously, I think Brady was both: 1) very very good at being a QB and 2) very very fortunate to have teamed up with Belichick and the Patriots in that era. In his situation, I truly believe that Manning or Montana could have equaled his output on the hardware tally and would have done it with individual position statistics that exceed Brady's. And sure that's speculation, but it is also speculation to assume that nobody could ever have done what Brady did given the same opportunities and circumstances.

Montana had Jerry Rice, Dwight Clark, John Taylor, and Roger Craig and then had Bill Freakin’ Walsh as his head coach. Montana was a third round pick. He’s very, very fortunate of his situation.

 

[n_huffhines]

 

[n_huffhines]

So how big of a pain in the ass is Tom Brady? Everybody gave him a pass in NE because we figured it was all BB, but every player seems to love Arians and those two are frosty to the point that Arians stepped down.

 

[05_never_again]

So how big of a pain in the ass is Tom Brady? Everybody gave him a pass in NE because we figured it was all BB, but every player seems to love Arians and those two are frosty to the point that Arians stepped down.

What exactly would Brady have been so pissed off at Arians about? I know it isn't uncommon for star players to have friction with coaches but it happens way more often when the team isn't playing well. These two won a SB and had the best offense in the league together.

 

[n_huffhines]

What exactly would Brady have been so pissed off at Arians about? I know it isn't uncommon for star players to have friction with coaches but it happens way more often when the team isn't playing well. These two won a SB and had the best offense in the league together.

Bill Simmons, who is a huge Brady guy, has been all over this since before the season ended. He predicted Brady was going to retire. Then he said Brady was angling to get to SFO or Miami. Bruce Arians was the public face of the rejection of his angling. Bruce was saying stuff like, "If Brady plays, he's playing for us." to the media. Then Arians abruptly steps down after Brady comes back in a capacity that will not have him working closely with Brady.

It's likely there were precursors.

 

[95 Vol Alum]

Bill Simmons, who is a huge Brady guy, has been all over this since before the season ended. He predicted Brady was going to retire. Then he said Brady was angling to get to SFO or Miami. Bruce Arians was the public face of the rejection of his angling. Bruce was saying stuff like, "If Brady plays, he's playing for us." to the media. Then Arians abruptly steps down after Brady comes back in a capacity that will not have him working closely with Brady.

It's likely there were precursors.

I hadn’t been paying attention. This could go in several threads here. The reporting on this is interesting given the implications made by Flores.

NFL should want to know how truthful allegations of Tom Brady-Dolphins backdoor trade are

 

[n_huffhines]

 

[knoxvol52]

Here we go....

 

[KB5252]

Personally, I have grown to hate the idea of all time greatest lists...... In any sport except perhaps hockey and even then not sure.

In my opinion lists should be segmented into eras of play. The game is just different than it was 15, 30 and 60 years ago.

 

[n_huffhines]

Personally, I have grown to hate the idea of all time greatest lists...... In any sport except perhaps hockey and even then not sure.

In my opinion lists should be segmented into eras of play. The game is just different than it was 15, 30 and 60 years ago.

Debating this is one of the most fun parts of sports but the people who are too absolute in their conclusions are the ones who ruin it, IMO

 

[northknoxvol]

The best there was, the best there is, and the best that ever will be. He is the Michael Jordan of pro football.

 

[zjcvols]

I think the case is simple with Manning and Brady. Brady’s longevity/accomplishments/winnings makes him the GOAT and it’s not much of a debate. But Manning was probably the most well rounded QB ever (with Mahomes right there now). One game, one drive…I want Brady. Start a franchise? Probably Manning. I think that’s a completely fair take.

 

[zjcvols]

I honestly think Mahomes has a chance to surpass Brady, even if he only gets 3-4 rings. He’s made 5 conference title games, three Super Bowls, 2 MVP’s, a 35/7 (!!!) TD/INT rate in the playoffs AND he’s going against Burrow/Allen/Lawrence/Herbert/Lamar for the next 8-10 years.