Utah State opens as early Vegas favorite @Tennessee

[Orange_Crush]

That is kind of relative, isn't it? Wells coached a MWC roster against a tougher than avg MWC schedule. He made a bowl, beat a ranked team, and scared the life out of two Pac 10 teams. I am unsure why you are trying to deny that is a better start than Jones got at UT last year.

I have never denied that. I've denied that last year was the start of CBJ's career, and pointed out that last year was the start of Wells'. And career for career, Jones' is more proven. If you had stated "Wells had a better win/loss record than Jones last year", then I would have nodded my head. You stated that Wells is a more proven coach. He is not.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Jones is unproven because he has not won in his current position and has had some VERY bad performances. Wells is proven because he has won in his current position with some VERY good performances against better teams.

Your assertion is that a guy who was a MWC assistant coach before last year is "more proven" than a multiple conference championship coach. Seriously...

For the record... It's just plain asinine.

You'd be right... if I had ever asserted that.

This is an appropriate place to say your statement above is very hypocritical.

Thank you, and good day.

:hi:

 

[sjt18]

I have never denied that. I've denied that last year was the start of CBJ's career, and pointed out that last year was the start of Wells'. And career for career, Jones' is more proven. If you had stated "Wells had a better win/loss record than Jones last year", then I would have nodded my head. You stated that Wells is a more proven coach. He is not.

I said that he is more proven in his current job. He won more and was more competitive against the best teams on his schedule with what he was left. It was the w/l record but not just that.

Most of us I think including you agreed that one of the things we wanted to see from the '13 was for them to be competitive in every game. Some even went as far as to refuse to put a number of wins to it... just compete. Well they didn't.

 

[sjt18]

Thank you, and good day.

:hi:

OK... not sure what you think you got there... but OK. Would you like for me to yank some of your comments out of context even when you have made VERY CLEAR what you mean?

 

[Orange_Crush]

I said that he is more proven in his current job. He won more and was more competitive against the best teams on his schedule with what he was left. It was the w/l record but not just that.

Most of us I think including you agreed that one of the things we wanted to see from the '13 was for them to be competitive in every game. Some even went as far as to refuse to put a number of wins to it... just compete. Well they didn't.

So, your point all along has been that Wells has better proven that he can win in the MWC than Jones has proven that he can win in the SEC? lol That's the point you've been building?

All your illustrations about a salesman from Chattanooga in Atlanta has just been to illustrate that the successful salesman in Dalton will be successful in Dalton? Wow...

And all this wasn't in the context of whether Wells had proven he could out-coach Jones more than Jones had proven he could hold his own? It wasn't a head/head match-up on proving coaching ability? It was all just a point that Wells had proven he can win in the MWC, and Jones is yet to prove his meddle in the SEC grinder...

OK. My bad.

:hi:

 

[Ez_Vol]

Wells would've succeeded as much as Coach Jones last year, if not less.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Wells would've succeeded as much as Coach Jones last year, if not less.

NM. Sorry.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I am not saying this to offend you or hurt your feelings or even to degrade your team (USU)... but if you had played the schedule UT has faced over the past two years... you would have struggled to win 8 games total. You would have lost for the same primary reason UT has lost so much- no depth of talent. The SEC is a meat grinder.

The thing with mid-majors is that they are mostly comers and goers. Occasionally the right coach will match up with a bunch of underrated players and create magic. Most do not make it last very long... there aren't that many of those underrated guys out there or coaches good enough to consistently find them.

Boise St has had a great run based on the ability to find enough underrated guys who could be developed and coached up to succeed against THEIR schedule. That schedule usually included 9 or 10 very weak opponents where they could develop players and get big wins then a couple of good teams that got them credibility wins. That weak schedule allowed them to have their best players always healthy to play the few good teams they faced.

No. What is ridiculous is how dense you are being over a very, very simple point. Wells had more success in his one season at USU than Jones had in his one season at UT. He won more games. He played more competitively against superior teams. He also got a victory over a top 25 opponent.

Just... Wow.

 

[kamarvel]

The argument that Wells had a more successful first season doesn't compute to me.

UT went 5-7 in 2012 vs the 25th ranked SOS. CBJ managed to have the same record in 2013 despite playing the 10th ranked SOS and losing 90% of the offensive production. The 2013 team beat USC who ended the season ranked 10th according to Sagarin.

USU went 11-2 in 2012 and finished in the top 20. They lost 5 games in Wells' first season while returning 18 starters. Yes, their SOS increased from 97 to 74 but they were 3-3 with Keeton as a starter. That "signature" win against a ranked team argument is incorrect as N. Illinois ended the season 59th according to Sagarin.

 

[sjt18]

So, your point all along has been that Wells has better proven that he can win in the MWC than Jones has proven that he can win in the SEC? lol That's the point you've been building?

Wells has had more success in his current job than Jones has had in his. That is simply a fact. You would be better served to try to excuse it but instead you try to alternately avoid it or deny it.

Where there is true overlap... like performance against much more talented teams... Wells did better.

And all this wasn't in the context of whether Wells had proven he could out-coach Jones more than Jones had proven he could hold his own? It wasn't a head/head match-up on proving coaching ability? It was all just a point that Wells had proven he can win in the MWC, and Jones is yet to prove his meddle in the SEC grinder...

OK. My bad.

:hi:

If you are asking if I think Jones with UT's talent should smack Wells with USU's talent around... then the answer is yes. Based on his "whole body of work"... I am hopeful that Jones is a MUCH better coach than '13 reflected.

 

[AboveAllNations]

Wells has had more success in his current job than Jones has had in his. That is simply a fact. You would be better served to try to excuse it but instead you try to alternately avoid it or deny it.

Care to address Kamarvel's points that Butch Jones maintained a 5-7 record despite losing 90% of 2012's offensive production, while Matt Wells dropped Utah State from an 11-2 record in 2012 to 8-5 despite returning 18 starters? What about the fact that Butch Jones wrapped up a top-5 recruiting class - isn't recruiting a criteria of "success" in coaching job?

Also, getting a lousy Tennessee team to beat #11 South Carolina and almost beat #6 Georgia is more impressive than almost beating a then-unranked and disfunctional USC team. So, no, it isn't a "fact" at all that Matt Wells has more success than Butch Jones in their current jobs.

 

[kamarvel]

I would also submit that team discipline is a good indicator of effective coaching.

In 2012, USU committed 90 penalties, ranking 106th. In 2013, they improved slightly by committing 84 penalties and ranking 94th.

UT committed 82 penalties in 2012, good for 82nd place. In 2013, the vol committed 55 penalties, and improved to 22nd in FBS.

Now, obviously the teams played different numbers of games, so looking at the averages, USU improved by 0.92 penalties per game, compared to UT, who improved by 2.25 per game.

 

[sjt18]

Wells would've succeeded as much as Coach Jones last year, if not less.

I do not disagree with that. My point is about the results where they actually coached.

If Jones is the coach I hope he is and that Orange Crush seems insistent that he is then he should smack Wells around come September.

 

[sjt18]

The argument that Wells had a more successful first season doesn't compute to me.

UT went 5-7 in 2012 vs the 25th ranked SOS. CBJ managed to have the same record in 2013 despite playing the 10th ranked SOS and losing 90% of the offensive production. The 2013 team beat USC who ended the season ranked 10th according to Sagarin.

And I could really buy this if he weren't also blown out 4 times, had not lost to Vandy, and had not almost lost to a middling mid-major.... that was later smoked by Navy! Why does that matter? Navy is NOT a team loaded with NFL talent.

USU went 11-2 in 2012 and finished in the top 20. They lost 5 games in Wells' first season while returning 18 starters. Yes, their SOS increased from 97 to 74 but they were 3-3 with Keeton as a starter. That "signature" win against a ranked team argument is incorrect as N. Illinois ended the season 59th according to Sagarin.

I didn't make a comparison between two USU teams. I made a comparison between USU '12 and UT '12. USU almost beat both USC and Utah. They competed in every game and didn't have a single blowout... much less 4.

I like to think UT would have beaten them last year. I want to believe that Jones is a much better coach. But I'd like to see some good tangible reasons to believe that.

 

[sjt18]

Also, getting a lousy Tennessee team...

Are you a UT fan or a Jones fan? Why is it out of bounds to criticize the coaches and say they underperformed but you can be a "great" fan and call the players "lousy"?

I am a UT fan. Not a Jones fan or a fan of particular players. I want UT to win... and I don't care if it is with or without Jones or any other individual.

 

[kamarvel]

And I could really buy this if he weren't also blown out 4 times, had not lost to Vandy, and had not almost lost to a middling mid-major.... that was later smoked by Navy! Why does that matter? Navy is NOT a team loaded with NFL talent.

And theres no correlation between losing almost all of our offensive production and not scoring in those games? After all, the blowouts were against numbers 2, 3, 4, and 7. As for vandy, it seems pretty convenient for you to discount the USC game as north bailing out Jones with an amazing catch, but one catch caused the vandy loss. Can't have it both ways.

I didn't make a comparison between two USU teams. I made a comparison between USU '12 and UT '12. USU almost beat both USC and Utah. They competed in every game and didn't have a single blowout... much less 4.

I like to think UT would have beaten them last year. I want to believe that Jones is a much better coach. But I'd like to see some good tangible reasons to believe that.

But a USU team returning 18 starters and losing 3 more games the next year is pertinent when evaluating the success of their coach. They were number 16 at the end of the 2012 season and number 41 at the end of 2013. That's a huge drop compared to tennessee dropping 2 spots to number 60.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If Jones is the coach I hope he is and that Orange Crush seems insistent that he is then he should smack Wells around come September.

WTH are you talking about? I said it's yet to be seen whether he will succeed in the SEC. I just also said that, career for career, he is a more proven coach than Wells.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I didn't make a comparison between two USU teams. I made a comparison between USU '12 and UT '12. USU almost beat both USC and Utah. They competed in every game and didn't have a single blowout... much less 4.

Yah. You made that comparison after saying this in the same thread:

The thing with mid-majors is that they are mostly comers and goers. Occasionally the right coach will match up with a bunch of underrated players and create magic. Most do not make it last very long... there aren't that many of those underrated guys out there or coaches good enough to consistently find them.

Boise St has had a great run based on the ability to find enough underrated guys who could be developed and coached up to succeed against THEIR schedule. That schedule usually included 9 or 10 very weak opponents where they could develop players and get big wins then a couple of good teams that got them credibility wins. That weak schedule allowed them to have their best players always healthy to play the few good teams they faced.

Nice.

 

[sjt18]

And theres no correlation between losing almost all of our offensive production and not scoring in those games? After all, the blowouts were against numbers 2, 3, 4, and 7.

So just to be perfectly clear... you are OK if a UT doesn't even show up for the bell?

As for vandy, it seems pretty convenient for you to discount the USC game as north bailing out Jones with an amazing catch, but one catch caused the vandy loss. Can't have it both ways.

Where have I EVER discounted the USCe game? I haven't. That was a superbly coached and well played game as was UGA. And the coaching was STILL subpar against Vandy.

But a USU team returning 18 starters and losing 3 more games the next year is pertinent when evaluating the success of their coach. They were number 16 at the end of the 2012 season and number 41 at the end of 2013. That's a huge drop compared to tennessee dropping 2 spots to number 60.

Whatever. If you don't understand the point by now then you aren't going to.

 

[sjt18]

WTH are you talking about? I said it's yet to be seen whether he will succeed in the SEC. I just also said that, career for career, he is a more proven coach than Wells.

You said he was a more proven coach than Wells. I agreed with that overall but said Wells was more successful in his first year at USU than Jones was in his first year at UT... and you went wild.

Don't back off now. You have said that Jones is the better coach. He decidedly has the more talented team. Both teams will have a bunch of new starters. Jones should beat Wells... good.

 

[RiseToTheTop]

Saw an article earlier today that said they lost the players responsible for over 50% of all their tackles last yr. they guys responsible for 50% of their INTs. Lost over 3000 yards and 20+ TDs on offense. Also said they lost like 4 on the OL and Five that started at least 5 games. They lose about 15 starters in all. Not only is Keeton out for spring but so is the starting RB.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

So just to be perfectly clear... you are OK if a UT doesn't even show up for the bell?

Where have I EVER discounted the USCe game? I haven't. That was a superbly coached and well played game as was UGA. And the coaching was STILL subpar against Vandy.





Whatever. If you don't understand the point by now then you aren't going to.

Whole crapload of BS from you. You have discredited the SC win several times while only focusing on us losing to top ranked teams and the bad game against Vandy. Yet you fail to see that we held Vandy to their fewest points that whole season. All you have really done this past season is focus on 5 games and that's it. You have not hit on any of the positives of last season. Your entitled to your opinion but you really need to stop thinking your posts are constructive and call them what they really are. Just plain old hate.

 

[sjt18]

Whole crapload of BS from you. You have discredited the SC win several times while only focusing on us losing to top ranked teams and the bad game against Vandy.

Lying doesn't help your cause. Please find one place... just one where I "discredited the USCe win OR the UGA loss. IMHO, the UGA game was by far the best coached game of the season... even better than USCe.

Yet you fail to see that we held Vandy to their fewest points that whole season.

I do not "fail to see" anything. Jones "managed" that game instead of monkey stomping an inferior roster. It happened. It is past. I am sure there are a million things Jones would do different if he could play that over again.

All you have really done this past season is focus on 5 games and that's it. You have not hit on any of the positives of last season.

That's because I am responding normally to people who refuse to see any of the non-positives. When I talk to others who take a balanced look at the season and recognize the shortcomings... I almost always bring up the "positives" too.

Your entitled to your opinion but you really need to stop thinking your posts are constructive and call them what they really are. Just plain old hate.

I don't hate Jones. I am a Vol fan. Jones EARNS my support by making the Vols better... not by holding a title.

 

[Wylo]

Utah State is a referendum game. We will know what the season holds after that game.

No point in going crazy about it till then.

 

[DCS]

Saw an article earlier today that said they lost the players responsible for over 50% of all their tackles last yr. they guys responsible for 50% of their INTs. Lost over 3000 yards and 20+ TDs on offense. Also said they lost like 4 on the OL and Five that started at least 5 games. They lose about 15 starters in all. Not only is Keeton out for spring but so is the starting RB.

Do you have a link? I'd like to read this.
Also I'm curious do you know the percentages that UT are losing?