Ukraine Protests

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#3,801
#3,801
volprof said:
https://news.vice.com/video/crimea-march-of-the-tatars

Won't see this on Russian state news either.
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The Crimean Tatars have a very interesting history and a lineage that goes all the way back to Genghis Kahn. I don't mean to sound contrarian in every post of this thread, but just to play devil's advocate:

1. Most of the ethnic groups that supported Hitler did not fair well in post war Soviet Union. The Soviets lost roughly 20 times more people than the US has in all their wars combined. That's no excuse for ethnic cleansing, just perspective.

2. Regarding forced migration, there are many groups throughout history that have been forced to move. Kurds, Native Americans, Palestinians, and African Americans off the top of my head. Each issue is complicated and have their own levels of conflict even to this day.

3. As far as the police escort, Russia has its' own terrorist issues with radical Muslim extremists. I know it's a personal bias from my own experience, but I get nervous when crowds start chanting Allah Ahkbar. I know In the back of my mind Islam is the religion of peace and all, but I don't know enough about the situation to make a call on whether the Tatars are more Hamas, Chechen, Al Queda, ISIS, or Hezbollah.

Note: I'm completely kidding about the last part. I know all Muslims are not jihadis.
 
#3,802
#3,802
red butler said:
The Crimean Tatars have a very interesting history and a lineage that goes all the way back to Genghis Kahn. I don't mean to sound contrarian in every post of this thread, but just to play devil's advocate:

1. Most of the ethnic groups that supported Hitler did not fair well in post war Soviet Union. The Soviets lost roughly 20 times more people than the US has in all their wars combined. That's no excuse for ethnic cleansing, just perspective.

2. Regarding forced migration, there are many groups throughout history that have been forced to move. Kurds, Native Americans, Palestinians, and African Americans off the top of my head. Each issue is complicated and have their own levels of conflict even to this day.

3. As far as the police escort, Russia has its' own terrorist issues with radical Muslim extremists. I know it's a personal bias from my own experience, but I get nervous when crowds start chanting Allah Ahkbar. I know In the back of my mind Islam is the religion of peace and all, but I don't know enough about the situation to make a call on whether the Tatars are more Hamas, Chechen, Al Queda, ISIS, or Hezbollah.

Note: I'm completely kidding about the last part. I know all Muslims are not jihadis.
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Americans have our own history with such actions, even as recently as interning Japanese-Americans during the war. I'll say this though, we at least talk about it here. I'm not sure treatment of the Tatars during WWII gets discussed much over there. It's more likely that the average Russian thinks Russians just sprouted up in Crimea. An autochthonous Russian region.
 
#3,803
#3,803
red butler said:
1. Most of the ethnic groups that supported Hitler did not fair well in post war Soviet Union.
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Did they?

During World War II, the entire Crimean Tatar population in Crimea fell victim to Soviet policies. Although a great number of Crimean Tatar men served in the Red Army and took part in the partisan movement in Crimea during the war, the existence of the Tatar Legion in the Nazi army and the collaboration of Crimean Tatar religious and political leaders with Hitler during the German occupation of Crimea provided the Soviets with a pretext for accusing the whole Crimean Tatar population of being Nazi collaborators.
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#3,805
#3,805
Velo Vol said:
Did they?
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Yes they did... But I agree it's complicated. During the Nazi occupation of Crimea, the Tatar leadership made deals with the Nazis. The Tatars never fought the Soviets, but they were seen as collaborators. Stalin certainly went way overboard in punishing "Nazi collaborators".

The Tatars identify more with the Turks as the land was won during the Russo-Turkish wars. My guess is that since the Crimea is strategically vital, Stalin used the collaboration as an excuse to move the people and secure the land.

We don't really have anything in American history to compare so I don't know what we'd do.
 
#3,806
#3,806
red butler said:
Yes they did... But I agree it's complicated. During the Nazi occupation of Crimea, the Tatar leadership made deals with the Nazis. The Tatars never fought the Soviets, but they were seen as collaborators. Stalin certainly went way overboard in punishing "Nazi collaborators".

The Tatars identify more with the Turks as the land was won during the Russo-Turkish wars. My guess is that since the Crimea is strategically vital, Stalin used the collaboration as an excuse to move the people and secure the land.

We don't really have anything in American history to compare so I don't know what we'd do.
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The Japanese-American internment is somewhat comparable, although we didn't require them to work in labor camps for decades before being able to return. Nor did we probably kill any of them. And we probably weren't responsible for WWII just like the Soviets. The myth of them as some sort of "allied" nation still staggers me. They're just as culpable for that war as the Nazis. Hitler just got a little too greedy, that's all.
 
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#3,808
#3,808
volprof said:
Foreign soccer players must speak Russian ? Duma plan ? RT Russian politics

You can't make this stuff up. And yet "pro-autonomy" bull****ers are up in arms about one Ukrainian politician having once proposed Ukrainian as that country's official language. I wonder what the Putin butt sniffers will come up with next.
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I'm not a Putin butt sniffer, but I don't see how you can compare a proposed law that will affect a handful of foreign soccer players and a proposed law that would have affected hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Also, your not being totally upfront with the anti-Russian language law. It's true the law wasn't passed, but a previous law protecting the right to speak Russian had been revoked and the law outlawing language rights was likely to pass.

I wonder why such a inconsequential issue to a government but very devisive among a people was the first issue the new government decided to take on.
 
#3,809
#3,809
red butler said:
I'm not a Putin butt sniffer, but I don't see how you can compare a proposed law that will affect a handful of foreign soccer players and a proposed law that would have affected hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Also, your not being totally upfront with the anti-Russian language law. It's true the law wasn't passed, but a previous law protecting the right to speak Russian had been revoked and the law outlawing language rights was likely to pass.

I wonder why such a inconsequential issue to a government but very devisive among a people was the first issue the new government decided to take on.
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Probably because they're tired of having to sniff Russia's ass for centuries.
 
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#3,810
#3,810
And I wasn't claiming you were a Putin butt sniffer. That was directed towards a hypothetical audience.

But it is fun to say:

Putin butt sniffers.
 
#3,811
#3,811
37L1 said:
Indian Removal Act of 1830
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This is very true, but I also try to approximate. For instance, if the Soviets were removing Chechens, Tatars, Bashkirs, et al. in 1943-44, then what were we doing at the same time? The only thing I can think of halfway comparable is the Japanese-American internment, which was most certainly racist given that we didn't do the same for German-Americans.
 
#3,813
#3,813
volprof said:
The Japanese-American internment is somewhat comparable, although we didn't require them to work in labor camps for decades before being able to return. Nor did we probably kill any of them. And we probably weren't responsible for WWII just like the Soviets. The myth of them as some sort of "allied" nation still staggers me. They're just as culpable for that war as the Nazis. Hitler just got a little too greedy, that's all.
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We also didn't have tens of millions killed by Japanese on American soil so anti-Japanes sentiment wasn't as bad as it might have been.

We agree the Soviets weren't inculpable for WWII, but they did take the brunt of it. I wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not betrayed Russia. My guess is that no one would have stopped him and he would have won most of Europe.

I've been reading a lot of interesting facts about how much of WWII was rooted in WWI. Also, how much support Hitler received from private American financing.
 
#3,815
#3,815
volprof said:
And I wasn't claiming you were a Putin butt sniffer. That was directed towards a hypothetical audience.

But it is fun to say:

Putin butt sniffers.
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I tend to read comments on every article I read so I read the ones in the article you posted. You wouldn't happen to go by username stopwiththefacistnonsense. I only ask because that poster seems to like Putin butt sniffers as well lol.
 
#3,816
#3,816
37L1 said:
Indian Removal Act of 1830
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I thought about using that one but I figured the response would be that was ancient history. At this point we don't have deep seeded emotions about the subject. Also, although they haven't gotten their land back Native Americans aren't exactly persecuted either.
 
#3,817
#3,817
red butler said:
I thought about using that one but I figured the response would be that was ancient history. At this point we don't have deep seeded emotions about the subject. Also, although they haven't gotten their land back Native Americans aren't exactly persecuted either.
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I'm an advocate for our indigenous people. I despise when some say that they're all rich from casinos. Yeah, like .1 % of them. And I'm talking about actual indigenous people; not just idiots who claim to be 1/16 Cherokee princess but never grew up on an actual res.

That being said, I dare anyone to find a country anywhere on this earth that hasn't, at least at one point, had a stronger group push out another. It's human history.

And I wouldn't exactly say that "stopwiththefascistnonsense" is a Putin butt sniffer lover.
 
#3,818
#3,818
red butler said:
Yes they did... But I agree it's complicated. During the Nazi occupation of Crimea, the Tatar leadership made deals with the Nazis. The Tatars never fought the Soviets, but they were seen as collaborators. Stalin certainly went way overboard in punishing "Nazi collaborators".
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I don't know anything about it, but wikipedia says they were fighting on both sides.

Things were different 70, 100 years ago. I don't know the story, but my great-grandfather's brother (Ukrainian immigrant family) is on a list of people shipped to a work camp in Canada. I assume they viewed him suspiciously being from the Austria-Hungry Empire. I've read they rounded up similar single men and put them in work camps to prevent them from causing trouble.

If they were doing that in Canada, it was pretty much everywhere.
 
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