Top 25 teams with point guard concerns

[MemphisCanes]

I think a few posters have had this discussion with you, but you're comparing him to Joe Jackson, and were comparing him to Trae Golden (who was quite possibly the slowest PG to ever play, as well as having horrible handles). The early reports out of workouts and scrimmages have been glowing, and mainly in regards to his defense.

I feel confident in saying that Barton will be an improvement in both defense and handles compared to what we previously had.

I'm just comparing him to your average D1 PG, not necessarily Jackson or Golden. Expectations should be that he'll be better than lead-foot Golden, but not that he'll be a lockdown defender at the 1.

 

[johnnybravo]

You guys always wonder why Memphis fans come on here trolling/spamming yet you post stuff like this. They have a good coach, is he Calapari? No. He's a good recruiter, he just seems to have problems putting it together. I wouldn't consider him a joke, regardless of me being a vol fan.

No different than Ron Zook

 

[MemphisCanes]

Lot's of butthurt in here regarding Pastner. I guess the 3-0 drubbing of Martin will do that to a fanbase though. It's very unbecoming, fellas.

 

[iKrager]

He can't coach dude.

Pastner can coach, maybe not as well as you or other people think he should be able to. We know he can recruit, but the test is if Pastner can bring those recruits to play harder, play like a team, and be unselfish on every possession. His overall record is 106-34 (.757), regardless of competition if he was a BAD coach, wouldn't he be losing a lot more of the "gimmes"? Some say he wins with talent, well recruiting that talent is a part of coaching.

Pastner hasn't won an NCAA game to date, we know that. In 2011, Memphis lost their opening round game to Arizona by 2 points (77-75). The same Arizona team that went to the final four and lost to UConn (later crowned champs). Would we be saying the same if Memphis had won that game and moved up further in the tournament? Remember when we got demolished in the first round by Michigan in 2011? We had a stacked roster and we were under Bruce Pearl. Sometimes you bring together your team and sometimes you don't.

Pastner's signed a 5-year contract extension with the Tigers, so he'll be there for a while.

 

[GoobieVol]

Pastner can coach, maybe not as well as you or other people think he should be able to. We know he can recruit, but the test is if Pastner can bring those recruits to play harder, play like a team, and be unselfish on every possession. His overall record is 106-34 (.757), regardless of competition if he was a BAD coach, wouldn't he be losing a lot more of the "gimmes"? Some say he wins with talent, well recruiting that talent is a part of coaching.

Pastner hasn't won an NCAA game to date, we know that. In 2011, Memphis lost their opening round game to Arizona by 2 points (77-75). The same Arizona team that went to the final four and lost to UConn (later crowned champs). Would we be saying the same if Memphis had won that game and moved up further in the tournament? Remember when we got demolished in the first round by Michigan in 2011? We had a stacked roster and we were under Bruce Pearl. Sometimes you bring together your team and sometimes you don't.

Pastner's signed a 5-year contract extension with the Tigers, so he'll be there for a while.

You mean the game Mike Hamilton fired BP right b4?


In other news: the price of tea in China just went up.

that line is trademarked for other posters use, by BTO.

 

[bwings]

Pastner can coach, maybe not as well as you or other people think he should be able to. We know he can recruit, but the test is if Pastner can bring those recruits to play harder, play like a team, and be unselfish on every possession. His overall record is 106-34 (.757), regardless of competition if he was a BAD coach, wouldn't he be losing a lot more of the "gimmes"? Some say he wins with talent, well recruiting that talent is a part of coaching.

Pastner hasn't won an NCAA game to date, we know that. In 2011, Memphis lost their opening round game to Arizona by 2 points (77-75). The same Arizona team that went to the final four and lost to UConn (later crowned champs). Would we be saying the same if Memphis had won that game and moved up further in the tournament? Remember when we got demolished in the first round by Michigan in 2011? We had a stacked roster and we were under Bruce Pearl. Sometimes you bring together your team and sometimes you don't.

Pastner's signed a 5-year contract extension with the Tigers, so he'll be there for a while.

They won an NCAA game last year.

 

[johnnybravo]

Pastner can coach, maybe not as well as you or other people think he should be able to. We know he can recruit, but the test is if Pastner can bring those recruits to play harder, play like a team, and be unselfish on every possession. His overall record is 106-34 (.757), regardless of competition if he was a BAD coach, wouldn't he be losing a lot more of the "gimmes"? Some say he wins with talent, well recruiting that talent is a part of coaching.

Pastner hasn't won an NCAA game to date, we know that. In 2011, Memphis lost their opening round game to Arizona by 2 points (77-75). The same Arizona team that went to the final four and lost to UConn (later crowned champs). Would we be saying the same if Memphis had won that game and moved up further in the tournament? Remember when we got demolished in the first round by Michigan in 2011? We had a stacked roster and we were under Bruce Pearl. Sometimes you bring together your team and sometimes you don't.

Pastner's signed a 5-year contract extension with the Tigers, so he'll be there for a while.

Just curious about your opinion?

Underachieved?
Overachieved?
Or has met expectations?

 

[MemphisCanes]

Pastner can coach, maybe not as well as you or other people think he should be able to. We know he can recruit, but the test is if Pastner can bring those recruits to play harder, play like a team, and be unselfish on every possession. His overall record is 106-34 (.757), regardless of competition if he was a BAD coach, wouldn't he be losing a lot more of the "gimmes"? Some say he wins with talent, well recruiting that talent is a part of coaching.

Pastner hasn't won an NCAA game to date, we know that. In 2011, Memphis lost their opening round game to Arizona by 2 points (77-75). The same Arizona team that went to the final four and lost to UConn (later crowned champs). Would we be saying the same if Memphis had won that game and moved up further in the tournament? Remember when we got demolished in the first round by Michigan in 2011? We had a stacked roster and we were under Bruce Pearl. Sometimes you bring together your team and sometimes you don't.

Pastner's signed a 5-year contract extension with the Tigers, so he'll be there for a while.

I was with ya until here.

 

[MemphisCanes]

There seems to be some weird double-standard against coaches who recruit really well and are maybe "mediocre" game coaches, vs. coaches that are "mediocre" recruiters but great game coaches.

For instance, you have coach A, great recruiter unproven/mediocre game coach and coach B, unproven/mediocre recruiter but great game coach. You watch both 4 years into their careers, and both missed the dance their first year, made it but with a low seed second year, made it with a midling seed third year and finally won a game their fourth seasons. Coach A has gotten great recruits; coach B midling recruits but has them playing way above their heads.

Coach B will be lauded while Coach A criticized for some reason, even though their results will be exactly the same. People seem to see coaching and recruiting as separate, when actually recruiting is an important aspect of coaching in general.

 

[Spartacavolus]

just wait and see how the team moves and plays with Barton on both ends. It'll clear itself up for you.
As far as Goodman, should we assume at 30+ minutes per game he'll be a 15 pt, 3 asst player based off his useless stats as a backup pg at another school? To boot, he has no idea what CM wants and this team needs out of pg and it is simply to play consistent, play some d, play basketball with your teammates instead waiting for a coach to tell you what to do, and not be a head case.

 

[GoobieVol]

You had me till you compared 2 years coaching at Missouri St. to 2 yrs coaching at Memphis.

How can you not see that is an unfair comparison? If you give CCM 2 more yrs here, keep seeing the same double-standard then post this again, I'll give it a like!

 

[MemphisCanes]

You had me till you compared 2 years coaching at Missouri St. to 2 yrs coaching at Memphis.

How can you not see that is an unfair comparison? If you give CCM 2 more yrs here, keep seeing the same double-standard then post this again, I'll give it a like!

I can't tell who you're responding to, but since you used "double standard" in your post I assume it's me.

I never compared Pastner and CCM. My post was a hypothetical. It's still valid though.

 

[GoobieVol]

I can't tell who you're responding to, but since you used "double standard" in your post I assume it's me.

I never compared Pastner and CCM. My post was a hypothetical. It's still valid though.

My bad I was, just didn't want to keep quoting you, and make you think I was a stalker or something.

I'm not so full of the orange cool-aid I can't agree. Your hypothetical just sounded awfully familiar.

 

[MemphisCanes]

My bad I was, just didn't want to keep quoting you, and make you think I was a stalker or something.

I'm not so full of the orange cool-aid I can't agree. Your hypothedical just sounded awfully familiar.

Think about a bizzaro world Coach Martin, he comes in before the 2012 season and recruits a three 4 star guys instead of Washpun, Makonjoula and Miller. He brings in Richardson and Cheivous, and Stokes halfway through the year, too. He finishes with the same record, 19-15.

Then he brings in and two other top 40 guys, instead of Edwards and Moore, for instance, so UT has a top 5-10 class for 2012. Bizarro Martin then takes that roster and goes 20-13 after losing Maymon to injury, barely missing the dance.

Bizarro Martin would be getting WAAAAAAY more flack than he is right now, for the same exact results as regular Martin has right now.

 

[GoobieVol]

Think about a bizzaro world Coach Martin, he comes in before the 2012 season and recruits a three 4 star guys instead of Washpun, Makonjoula and Miller. He brings in Richardson and Cheivous, and Stokes halfway through the year, too. He finishes with the same record, 19-15.

Then he brings in and two other top 40 guys, instead of Edwards and Moore, for instance, so UT has a top 5-10 class for 2012. Bizarro Martin then takes that roster and goes 20-13 after losing Maymon to injury, barely missing the dance.

Bizarro Martin would be getting WAAAAAAY more flack than he is right now, for the same exact results as regular Martin has right now.

So you went from hypothetical to bizzaro Martin.

1. puff puff pass
2. when are you going to proclaim your secret crush on the Vols?

 

[johnnybravo]

Think about a bizzaro world Coach Martin, he comes in before the 2012 season and recruits a three 4 star guys instead of Washpun, Makonjoula and Miller. He brings in Richardson and Cheivous, and Stokes halfway through the year, too. He finishes with the same record, 19-15.

Then he brings in and two other top 40 guys, instead of Edwards and Moore, for instance, so UT has a top 5-10 class for 2012. Bizarro Martin then takes that roster and goes 20-13 after losing Maymon to injury, barely missing the dance.

Bizarro Martin would be getting WAAAAAAY more flack than he is right now, for the same exact results as regular Martin has right now.

Not so sure about that. Most on here agree that it's do or die this year for CCM. The administration might not agree, but IMO most Vol fans will want a new coach if he fails to dance this year.

 

[MemphisCanes]

So you went from hypothetical to bizzaro Martin.

1. puff puff pass
2. when are you going to proclaim your secret crush on the Vols?

The point of my post

--------------------

Your head

 

[MemphisCanes]

Not so sure about that. Most on here agree that it's do or die this year for CCM. The administration might not agree, but IMO most Vol fans will want a new coach if he fails to dance this year.

Perhaps, but I don't think the rest of the national media thinks Martin is on the hot seat. I think that might now be the case if he a was a bang-up recruiter with the same records.

 

[johnnybravo]

I don't necessarily think people think that he is on the "hot seat". He's built a top 25 roster this year. He's failed to go to the dance both years here, but each year was missing a few pieces to the puzzle to get over the bubble. He has no excusses or "issues" this year. So, with this roster he should perform accordingly. If he doesn't, the fans will want a change. So no, he not getting any less criticism amongst our fans than coach a, b, or x, y, z would.

 

[GoobieVol]

The point of my post

--------------------

Your head

Your probably right. I'm sober, so I will try to read your bizarro hypothetical on a later date.

 

[cncchris33]

There seems to be some weird double-standard against coaches who recruit really well and are maybe "mediocre" game coaches, vs. coaches that are "mediocre" recruiters but great game coaches.

One is generally much easier to correct. Being a good coach is intangible in a sense. One can become a better recruiter due to circumstance and situation. As for being a good coach, you either are or you aren't.

Brad Stevens for example. Or Shaka Smart. Their situations somewhat limit(ed) their ability to recruit, but their coaching abilities turned a group of average talent into above average teams. Now put Stevens at Indiana, or Smart at Georgetown and they instantly gain a different level of credibility with elite talent.

Put Pastner at Murray State (sans his small bit of credibility as a high-major coach at Memphis), and I think you get a better idea of his coaching ability.

The Ron Zook example above is a good one. Great recruiter, but an average, at best, coach. Back to your statement, who'd you rather have coaching your football team, Ron Zook or Frank Beamer?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

There seems to be some weird double-standard against coaches who recruit really well and are maybe "mediocre" game coaches, vs. coaches that are "mediocre" recruiters but great game coaches.

For instance, you have coach A, great recruiter unproven/mediocre game coach and coach B, unproven/mediocre recruiter but great game coach. You watch both 4 years into their careers, and both missed the dance their first year, made it but with a low seed second year, made it with a midling seed third year and finally won a game their fourth seasons. Coach A has gotten great recruits; coach B midling recruits but has them playing way above their heads.

Coach B will be lauded while Coach A criticized for some reason, even though their results will be exactly the same. People seem to see coaching and recruiting as separate, when actually recruiting is an important aspect of coaching in general.

I think at the end of the day regardless of recruiting its typically about results and expectations....is coach ? meeting your expectations? I don't think recruiting or x & o really get weighed in too much, all that matter are results.

 

[iKrager]

They won an NCAA game last year.

:banghead2:

Just curious about your opinion?

Underachieved?
Overachieved?
Or has met expectations?

Has met expectations, but I'm not a Memphis fan. He's done a good job with W-L record but for Memphis it's about getting back into the national contender race. This year will be a much better test for Memphis. What do you think?

I was with ya until here.

Damn. They beat Saint Mary's last year, I was thinking the last NCAA game they played was against Saint Louis haha.

 

[bwings]

I think at the end of the day regardless of recruiting its typically about results and expectations....is coach ? meeting your expectations? I don't think recruiting or x & o really get weighed in too much, all that matter are results.

Exactly.

I think it's the opposite of what someone said. You can learn coaching (plus you can hire great assistants), you can't learn recruiting. The Pastner at Murray State example may be valid but a lot of people still think he can't recruit nationally. That will be determined in the next couple of years as well.

Martin will have a great roster over at least the next couple of years and hopefully recruiting will improve because of it. If he doesn't have success in making and winning in the NCAA, we'll be seeing the same comments about him as we are Pastner now.

 

[bwings]

:banghead2:


Has met expectations, but I'm not a Memphis fan. He's done a good job with W-L record but for Memphis it's about getting back into the national contender race. This year will be a much better test for Memphis. What do you think?

Damn. They beat Saint Mary's last year, I was thinking the last NCAA game they played was against Saint Louis haha.

They've had two bad NCAA games.......St Louis and Michigan State. They played over their heads in the Arizona game and had a chance to win in the final seconds.