Tom Brady.....even better than I thought he was.

#452
#452
n_huffhines said:
The point wasn't to lessen Brady's greatness it was to protect Bill Belichik's. Somebody specifically said that Brady carried those teams at the end and he clearly did not. He carried the offense, fine. Again, a top 7 D literally every year those last 5 years, and the #1 D twice. You can interpret that to mean Brady's greatness is lessened, but it's just a statement of facts to refute something wrong that was said.

Do you honestly think Brady played with a team this bad? I can't believe they were the #10 D giving up 24.25 ppg last week and now they're the 25th ranked D giving up 26.2 ppg. That math doesn't add up. Either way, we now have 5 weeks of data so why use 4 weeks of data to compare it to 16/17 game seasons from the past? Because it makes your argument better? Nah, let's use all the data available. 25th ranked D. No weapons. Average line. Maybe Brady had a team this bad one year or 2 years and he made them respectable. Let's not pretend this is what BB was putting out there year after and year and Brady was winning SB's with it. Come on, now.

Brady did have arguably the best offense of all time around him with a #1 D and he didn't throw for 7,000 yards and he didn't win a super bowl, either.
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Here again, you make ludicrous statements hoping they’ll somehow become fact. Brady had Moss one year, and the next-best WR that year was undrafted out of college. If you try to argue that Wes Welker was ever in the same universe as Wayne or Harrison, you will look pretty silly. Brady’s tight ends that year were Mike Vrabel and Benjamin Watson. His running backs were Kevin Faulk and Laurence Maroney. Everyone from Steve Young to Rex Ryan has said that Brady is the greatest in part because he did more with less talent than any QB in history. The one year he had just one dominant WR he set the record at that time for TD passes in a season. And Welker cost them that Super Bowl, let a pass that would have given them first and goal go right through his hands.

Serious question: how many yards do you think Brady would have thrown for if he had had Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Sammy Watkins, and Mecole Hardman on the same team? How many games do you think he would have lost?
 
#453
#453
lifeisdeep said:
Here again, you make ludicrous statements hoping they’ll somehow become fact. Brady had Moss one year, and the next-best WR that year was undrafted out of college. If you try to argue that Wes Welker was ever in the same universe as Wayne or Harrison, you will look pretty silly. Brady’s tight ends that year were Mike Vrabel and Benjamin Watson. His running backs were Kevin Faulk and Laurence Maroney. Everyone from Steve Young to Rex Ryan has said that Brady is the greatest in part because he did more with less talent than any QB in history. The one year he had just one dominant WR he set the record at that time for TD passes in a season. And Welker cost them that Super Bowl, let a pass that would have given them first and goal go right through his hands.

Serious question: how many yards do you think Brady would have thrown for if he had had Tyreke Hill, Travis Kelce, Sammy Watkins, and Mecole Hardman on the same team? How many games do you think he would have lost?
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You're going with Welker's draft profile to undersell him, bro. Come on. We all saw him on a terrible Dolphins team get 67 catches in 2 starts. We also saw him get 111 catches with noodle-arm Peyton Manning in just 13 games. What are we talking about here?

Since we're talking about draft profiles, that team also had Donte Stallworth who was a 1st rounder, a proven commodity, and considered one of the most dangerous WR's with the ball in his hands in the entire league.

Was Ben Watson a bad TE in your mind? Not lighting the world on fire, but he was good. Pretty good 5th option in the passing game, if you ask me.

Do you think Maroney (also a 1st rounder) was bad? He got hurt in year 3 and never bounced back, but he was a 1st round pick, and was good before all that. Kevin Faulk was one of the best pass-catching RB's in the league.

How old are you? Are you simply going off the fact that these names were lost to history or did you actually watch and know football in 2007? Maroney, Faulk, and Watson aren't game changers, but they're certainly blessings when you already have Moss, Welker, and Stallworth.
 
#454
#454
Everybody talks about Peyton's weapons, and obviously they could play...but how good were they? Who did anything without Peyton? Reggie Wayne and Welker are the only guys. Harrison only played with Peyton, for the most part. Decker, Stokley, Collie, Clark, Edge*, Rhodes, D Thomas, J Thomas, Pollard, etc. Peyton got guys paid and then they didn't do much. Where are we putting these guys historically if the Mac Jones of the world are their QB's?

*And Edge had injuries. Yeah he was there for 7 years, but he also had a torn ACL that interrupted everything...he had 6 TD's over 2 seasons at one point. Prime Manning only got 2 years with prime Edge, if we're being honest.
 
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#455
#455
n_huffhines said:
You're going with Welker's draft profile to undersell him, bro. Come on. We all saw him on a terrible Dolphins team get 67 catches in 2 starts. We also saw him get 111 catches with noodle-arm Peyton Manning in just 13 games. What are we talking about here?

Since we're talking about draft profiles, that team also had Donte Stallworth who was a 1st rounder, a proven commodity, and considered one of the most dangerous WR's with the ball in his hands in the entire league.

Was Ben Watson a bad TE in your mind? Not lighting the world on fire, but he was good. Pretty good 5th option in the passing game, if you ask me.

Do you think Maroney (also a 1st rounder) was bad? He got hurt in year 3 and never bounced back, but he was a 1st round pick, and was good before all that. Kevin Faulk was one of the best pass-catching RB's in the league.

How old are you? Are you simply going off the fact that these names were lost to history or did you actually watch and know football in 2007? Maroney, Faulk, and Watson aren't game changers, but they're certainly blessings when you already have Moss, Welker, and Stallworth.
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Stallworth never for a second lived up to his draft status - just the fact you mention him shows you never watched that team. Mauroney was ass. Any semblance of credibility you still were clinging to got obliterated with the mention of him.

You didn’t answer my question about what Brady would have done with talent like Mahomes had for his first SB win. Obviously you avoided it because you know it destroys your argument.
 
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#456
#456
lifeisdeep said:
Stallworth never for a second lived up to his draft status - just the fact you when mention him shows you never watched that team. Mauroney was ass. Any semblance of credibility you still were clinging to got obliterated with the mention of him.

You didn’t answer my question about what Brady would have done with talent like Mahomes had for his first SB win. Obviously you avoided it because you know it destroys your argument.
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Stallworth was still good, tho. You're talking about the wrong things. Were Moss, Stallworth, and Welker an elite trio? Yes or no? The answer is yes. Who cares if Stallworth didn't meet expectations and Welker had low expectations. You're purposefully obfuscating the point that they were good.

Lawrence Maroney had the same YPC in NWE as Edge had in Indy, better than Rhodes, better than Knowshon, and better than Addai, so IDK how you can say he was ass. He was just cut short by injuries. You don't know what you're talking about.

I didn't answer your pointless hypothetical question? Brady would have had big stats with those guys. Who cares? What is the point? What argument does it destroy? What argument do you think I made that that hypothetical refutes? Brady is the GOAT. He was amazing. Nobody is saying otherwise. I'm literally just saying Belichik set him up for success by handling the defensive side of the ball for 2 decades in the face of others saying Brady carried those teams. Nobody is slandering Brady.
 
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#457
#457
n_huffhines said:
Stallworth was still good, tho. You're talking about the wrong things. Were Moss, Stallworth, and Welker an elite trio? Yes or no? The answer is yes. Who cares if Stallworth didn't meet expectations and Welker had low expectations. You're purposefully obfuscating the point that they were good.

Lawrence Maroney had the same YPC in NWE as Edge had in Indy, better than Rhodes, better than Knowshon, and better than Addai, so IDK how you can say he was ass. He was just cut short by injuries. You don't know what you're talking about.

I didn't answer your pointless hypothetical question? Brady would have had big stats with those guys. Who cares? What is the point? What argument does it destroy? What argument do you think I made that that hypothetical refutes? Brady is the GOAT. He was amazing. Nobody is saying otherwise. I'm literally just saying Belichik set him up for success by handling the defensive side of the ball for 2 decades in the face of others saying Brady carried those teams. Nobody is slandering Brady.
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You stated that Brady had the best offense ever one season. That’s ludicrous based on the talent he had around him. Stallworth wouldn’t even start on most NFL teams, then or now. He had a whopping 697 yards and three TDs in 2007. He didn’t even start seven of the sixteen games that year. So no, he was not elite by any definition.

When you try to claim Laurence Mauroney was on a par with Edgerrin James, your bias becomes blatant and your argument becomes laughable. Mauroney ran for 835 yards in 2007 - James ran for more than that six of his seven seasons in Indy, including five seasons over 1,100 and four seasons over 1,500 yards. I wonder if you know how foolish it sounds when you try to claim Mauroney was on a par with him? It’s like saying Kwame Brown would have been better than Shaq if he hadn’t sucked.
 
#458
#458
the case is now closed.

Things went downhill without Brady so badly, and the Patriots are in such need of a complete rebuild, that Bill had to be let go because he’s going to be too damn old by the time the Patriots are potentially worth a damn again.

It’s not that he couldn’t win championships without Brady, he couldn’t win at all without him.

A career 17 games under .500, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win in 11 seasons without Brady as a starting quarterback.

You can argue this at all levels, but at the pro level, it’s the players. See also Popovich, Gregg
 
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#459
#459
99gator said:
the case is now closed.

Things went downhill without Brady so badly, and the Patriots are in such need of a complete rebuild, that Bill had to be let go because he’s going to be too damn old by the time the Patriots are potentially worth a damn again.

It’s not that he couldn’t win championships without Brady, he couldn’t win at all without him.

A career 17 games under .500, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win in 11 seasons without Brady as a starting quarterback.

You can argue this at all levels, but at the pro level, it’s the players. See also Popovich, Gregg
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This I totally agree with. I think Belichick is the most overrated coach in the history of the game. I don’t find Brady to be the best QB ever, but I do find him by far to be the greatest NFL player ever. Not just because of what he did on the field, but also because of what he did off the field. I believe he was part owner, part GM and part head coach as well as full time QB. I believe he orchestrated that organization at all levels, not Kraft not Belichick. That became clear when he went to Tampa and did the same and immediately won a Super Bowl.
 
#460
#460
ZZ13 said:
This I totally agree with. I think Belichick is the most overrated coach in the history of the game. I don’t find Brady to be the best QB ever, but I do find him by far to be the greatest NFL player ever. Not just because of what he did on the field, but also because of what he did off the field. I believe he was part owner, part GM and part head coach as well as full time QB. I believe he orchestrated that organization at all levels, not Kraft not Belichick. That became clear when he went to Tampa and did the same and immediately won a Super Bowl.
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Belichik's record is unimpeachable. 2 SB's as DC of Giants starting 5 decades ago. Took Browns to playoffs in his first HC job. Then 5 SB's as HC with a reputation as an X's and O's genius and personnel manager. The **** that BB figured out before everybody else. He gave his team an edge in so many ways. I can go into detail if you want. He made Brady as much as Brady made him, if not moreso.

I mean, just look at the Rams SB. That was 40 years into the game and he was still coaching masterpieces. It's over now, probably not because he's a bad coach but because of his recent failures as a GM.

Brady hand picked a team that was ready to win a SB. Credit to him, but if BB could've handpicked somebody like the Chiefs that year, would any of us be surprised if he succeeded?

The Brady take is a little nuts. So Brady orchestrated everything, including his own pay cuts and then the Pats still didn't spend $ on help for him? He was the one who decided they weren't going to invest in the WR position?
 
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#461
#461
BTW, I haven't watched the Pats docuseries on Apple, but apparently a lot of Pats fans and insiders are not happy about the nerfing of BB and excessive praise of Kraft. I've been hearing a lot of whispers about this, then Googled it and found this:

www.si.com

Has 'The Dynasty' Turned Patriots Fans Against Robert Kraft?

Some New England Patriots fans are finding the docuseries "The Dynasty" geared too far in the favor of owner Robert Kraft after comments from Rodney Harrison and Devin McCourty.
www.si.com www.si.com
 
#462
#462
Losing record without Brady as his starter says all I need. Elite tactician and roster builder (when he allows other input). All moot as a HC when there’s not that elite alpha. In a bygone age with no free agency, Gibbs won three separate SBs with three separate QBs none a HOF. Bill Parcells netted two in that same era and John Harbaugh has done it in modern times…one offs with elite defenses. Mebbe Belichick wins one or two with a game management type. Mebbe he loses too much like he did in Cleveland and like the Pats were before Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe out of the game and for Brady to enter the equation to even get a chance. He doesn’t win SIX without the football gods facilitating his best coaching move. I know where my hypothetical money’s going.
 
#463
#463
butchna said:
Losing record without Brady as his starter says all I need. Elite tactician and roster builder (when he allows other input). All moot as a HC when there’s not that elite alpha. In a bygone age with no free agency, Gibbs won three separate SBs with three separate QBs none a HOF. Bill Parcells netted two in that same era and John Harbaugh has done it in modern times…one offs with elite defenses. Mebbe Belichick wins one or two with a game management type. Mebbe he loses too much like he did in Cleveland and like the Pats were before Mo Lewis knocked Drew Bledsoe out of the game and for Brady to enter the equation to even get a chance. He doesn’t win SIX without the football gods facilitating his best coaching move. I know where my hypothetical money’s going.
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I don't think our opinions of BB are that far apart, we're just framing it differently.

Parcells has 2 titles because of BB's defense, LOL. Parcells has 0 without BB. BB has 5 without Parcells.

IDC if you add up all the washed Kosar*, Testaverde, washed Bledsoe**, Cassell, Jones, Brissett, Hoyer, Garoppolo, Zappe, Tomczack and Philcox games and they amount to a losing record. I don't think anybody should care.

I look at it like he took Matt Cassel to 11-5. That's like 1/3 of MC's career wins and he started 91 games. He took rookie Mac Jones to 10-7. Testaverde became somewhat competent in Cleveland. He had a .333 record in Tampa and .516 in Cleveland and then .286 in Baltimore.

I agree that he maybe wins just a couple without Brady, but I also think the same is true of Brady. BB's the GOAT because of what he did, not because of what he might've done with less.

*Kosar had 10 TD's and 15 INT's the year before BB showed up.
**Bledsoe had 19 TD's and 21 INT's the year before BB showed up.
 
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#464
#464
n_huffhines said:
I don't think our opinions of BB are that far apart, we're just framing it differently.

Parcells has 2 titles because of BB's defense, LOL. Parcells has 0 without BB. BB has 5 without Parcells.

IDC if you add up all the washed Kosar*, Testaverde**, washed Bledsoe***, Cassell, Jones, Brissett, Hoyer, Garoppolo, Zappe, Tomczack and Philcox and the games amount to a losing record. I don't think anybody should care.

I look at it like he took Matt Cassel to 11-5. That's like a 1/3 of MC's career wins and he started 91 games. He took rookie Mac Jones to 10-7.

I agree that he maybe wins just a couple without Brady, but I also think the same is true of Brady. BB's the GOAT because of what he did, not because of what he might've done with less.

*Kosar had 10 TD's and 15 INT's the year before BB showed up.
**Testaverde became somewhat competent in Cleveland.
***Bledsoe had 19 TD's and 21 INT's the year before BB showed up.
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Not DIAMETRICALLY opposed but it's been beta tested. First shot without Belichick, Brady found enough to win...against a QB at the top of the game. Midway through their partnership I saw it floated that any QB could win a SB under Belichick...none has outside of the subject matter. I don't KNOW if Brady gets to his level without Belichick facilitating his development but I know Brady took the reins and exceeded the ceiling of what can be attributed to coaching. Belichick obtained the cheat code and gets credit, but the extent goes to the code.
 
#465
#465
butchna said:
Not DIAMETRICALLY opposed but it's been beta tested. First shot without Belichick, Brady found enough to win...against a QB at the top of the game. Midway through their partnership I saw it floated that any QB could win a SB under Belichick...none has outside of the subject matter. I don't KNOW if Brady gets to his level without Belichick facilitating his development but I know Brady took the reins and exceeded the ceiling of what can be attributed to coaching. Belichick obtained the cheat code and gets credit, but the extent goes to the code.
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Haha...for real? Mahomes had no chance in that game. Mahomes was running for his life making spectacular plays just so he could get to 9 points and you're giving Brady credit for beating a great QB? It's technically true that he beat a great QB but the spirit of what you're saying is not true. It might as well have been Rex Grossman and the Bears (who put up more points in the SB).
 
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#466
#466
n_huffhines said:
Haha...for real? Mahomes had no chance in that game. Mahomes was running for his life making spectacular plays just so he could get to 9 points and you're giving Brady credit for beating a great QB? It's technically true that he beat a great QB but the spirit of what you're saying is not true. It might as well have been Rex Grossman and the Bears (who put up more points in the SB).
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The spirit is true. Brady was never out of a single Super Bowl...even when it seemed all done. Even his losses were last second hold your breath affairs. Mahomes had the same OL all season long and vanquished some notable opposing QBs who didn't make that one pass or convert that one third down. Brady took a franchise that had fallen short of the PLAYOFFS for THIRTEEN SEASONS and gets no or little credit for their Lombardi Trophy? I gave up fansplaining away the difference he brings after the miracle against the Falcons. Peyton's still my favorite but was easily punched out after a bad snap against Seattle. With an offense he had led to record numbers that season. Doesn't lessen his greatness to recognize Brady's.
 
#467
#467
Brady made 1 SB without a top 10 scoring defense and lost.

Peyton, Eli (2x), Mahomes, and Brees all won without a top 10 scoring defense.

BB’s contribution.
 
#468
#468
95 Vol Alum said:
Brady made 1 SB without a top 10 scoring defense and lost.

Peyton, Eli (2x), Mahomes, and Brees all won without a top 10 scoring defense.

BB’s contribution.
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Which one was that? The one he set a passing record for a SB?
 
#473
#473
I think it's funny people bury BB for not setting up Brady with better WR's. If you're getting 4300 yards, 30 TD's and 12 wins out of Gronk and Edelman, why should you drop 10% of your cap on another WR? I mean, we know Brady needs guys who know where to be moreso than guys with elite talent. Their death by a thousand cuts O means they don't need to pay a premium at WR. Why wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? BB didn't think like anybody else.

People thought it was nuts when he dropped Milloy now nobody even blinks at that kind of cutthroat transaction.

Trading Seymour at his prime and maintaining defensive quality? He figured out DT's are better cap values than DE's before anybody else did.

Put your best corner on their #2 and double their #1.

Don't run what your best at, run all the techniques, and by playoff time, your guys are good at everything and you can be flexible in tailoring your game plan to the opponent.

Spend more on depth relative to star power and be one of the deeper teams every January.

Bill would go 2-2 in September and everybody would be like "what's wrong" and then they'd be 4-0 in December because they sacrificed September to build for the playoffs. Bill was just on another level.
 
#474
#474
95 Vol Alum said:
BB managed the defense. Brady and NE’s SB runs involved top 10, often top 5 defenses that Bill coached up. It took both of them.
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Not arguing that it didn't take BOTH... for the Pats. Only one did it without the other elsewhere, tho.
 
#475
#475
n_huffhines said:
I think it's funny people bury BB for not setting up Brady with better WR's. If you're getting 4300 yards, 30 TD's and 12 wins out of Gronk and Edelman, why should you drop 10% of your cap on another WR? I mean, we know Brady needs guys who know where to be moreso than guys with elite talent. Their death by a thousand cuts O means they don't need to pay a premium at WR. Why wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere? BB didn't think like anybody else.

People thought it was nuts when he dropped Milloy now nobody even blinks at that kind of cutthroat transaction.

Trading Seymour at his prime and maintaining defensive quality? He figured out DT's are better cap values than DE's before anybody else did.

Put your best corner on their #2 and double their #1.

Don't run what your best at, run all the techniques, and by playoff time, your guys are good at everything and you can be flexible in tailoring your game plan to the opponent.

Spend more on depth relative to star power and be one of the deeper teams every January.

Bill would go 2-2 in September and everybody would be like "what's wrong" and then they'd be 4-0 in December because they sacrificed September to build for the playoffs. Bill was just on another level.
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It's undeniable that Peyton Manning made Harrison and Wayne HOFers. It's underplayed that Brady got winning production out of his avaiable receivers. Moss and Gronkowski the only ones going to the Hall and Moss in a very limited stint.
 
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