The truth behind Joc Bruce

[utvols74]

Why not? He scared Croom will punch him in class?

I'd just like to see Croom be as aggressive with a DB/LB as he was with this guy. I don't even mind if he punches 1 or 2 on the field.

 

[peerless98]

You guys are sad you would think that someone would have some concerns about a kid getting bullied. But all that come out is good bye. And make jokes about him. If your family or child goes through this make sure you have the same attitude. Go VOLS

Let me just say that "bullying" is the most overused word in today's world. Getting punched in the jaw is not bullying necessarily. Neither you nor anyone else know all the facts. Bullying, by definition, is determined by a repeated act or treatment. If Joc deserved it, it's not bullying. If he didn't deserve it, it is assault. Butch would not have turned a blind eye to that, but believe what you want.

 

[KBVol]

Your son walks into your living room. Walks over to the corner near the TV, whips it out, and pees right there. In the corner of your living room.

Flabbergasted, you ask him what the heck he's doing. He says, 'what?' and starts to walk off. You put your hand on his shoulder to stop him, and explain in no uncertain terms that one does not pee in the corner of the living room. He looks at you with some mixture of disrespect, contempt, and mockery, and says, "I do." And then starts to walk off.

You grab him, he shrugs off your arm and walks out the door.

You can:

(1) clock the kid, make him reconsider the wisdom of his disrespect;
(2) plead with him to stop;
(3) scold him in a very stern voice as he walks away;
(4) call the police and get the thug arrested, for...something.

As you might agree, (2) and (3) will be utterly ineffective. (4) blows the situation out of proportion, makes it public, and still solves nothing. Meanwhile, (1) just might work.

Violence isn't always the answer. But sometimes a bit of it is better than any of the alternatives.

We used to keep boxing gloves around the battalion. Often a bit of a kerfuffle solves things quicker and more efficiently than more "civilized" alternatives.

Plus, you gotta love a guy who stands up for Vols traditions and respect.

Did you just work in the word kerfuffle into your post? Love it. Your take was already outstanding....and then you took it to the next level.

 

[peerless98]

Wasn't this the kid that cried when he got his offer? I don't he was walking around trashing UT

Uh, did you see him with Coach Duncan on The Sports Source on a Sunday morning a few months before he committed? IMO, he was disrespectful to everyone on the panel except his coach. Not a humble kid by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[VFL1953]

Honestly if you're a victim of bullying you probably aren't going to be a successful D1 football player.

Seriously. This post is not going to be popular in some quarters, but screw it, blame George Dickel. I am not a badass, never was. Years ago I played a crapload of football, no, never at the division 1 college level. Wasn't good enough. I was an average kid with slightly better than average athleticism and I loved football. I could never have imagined letting someone "bully" me into not going to class. You would have to whip my ass daily, and guess what? I would have inflicted enough damage that the SOB would get tired of it quick enough. I'm pretty sure that a Southeastern Conference football player would also be able to put up a fair amount of resistance. This just don't smell right to me. Different era maybe, but I'm not buying it.

 

[peerless98]

Seriously. This post is not going to be popular in some quarters, but screw it, blame George Dickel. I am not a badass, never was. Years ago I played a crapload of football, no, never at the division 1 college level. Wasn't good enough. I was an average kid with slightly better than average athleticism and I loved football. I could never have imagined letting someone "bully" me into not going to class. You would have to whip my ass daily, and guess what? I would have inflicted enough damage that the SOB would get tired of it quick enough. I'm pretty sure that a Southeastern Conference football player would also be able to put up a fair amount of resistance. This just don't smell right to me. Different era maybe, but I'm not buying it.

Me neither

 

[RikidyBones]

Eastknox been absent since his little Nancy boy tirade.

 

[chargervol]

Did you just work in the word kerfuffle into your post? Love it. Your take was already outstanding....and then you took it to the next level.

Oh, he definitely kerfuffled. Also tried to bet my money..Can't trust someone like that IMO.

 

[peerless98]

Ah, heh, I'm the one seeing the world in "monochrome." I live very comfortably today in a world of zero tolerance for physical violence. I've been retired a while now, and absolutely understand your perspective.

But, see, you're having real trouble understanding mine. Ours. The world of the football player, or the soldier, the world where physicality is the norm, whether you're helping each other over a wall, or double-teaming a block, or knocking some sense into each other.

I have no problem seeing the world in all its glorious colors. You, sir, do seem to be having a bit of trouble with that.

And BTW, you seem not to know much about or understand the UCMJ, either. I assure you assault is just as much an offense in it as in the laws of our civil society. It's just a question of being smart about whether and to what extent they should be enforced ... in both worlds.

Jason, or Josh, or Curt, or whoever straightened Joc Bruce out, did nothing wrong, nothing a young leader shouldn't do.

Did you order the code red?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Oh, he definitely kerfuffled. Also tried to bet my money..Can't trust someone like that IMO.

You know it, baby.

Did you order the code red?

You know it, baby.

 

[tennesseeduke]

You guys are sad you would think that someone would have some concerns about a kid getting bullied. But all that come out is good bye. And make jokes about him. If your family or child goes through this make sure you have the same attitude. Go VOLS

Bullying means he is being singled out & picked on. You say you know the truth but in actuality it's only what jb mom told you. If jc had done something wrong I bet cbj would have disciplined jc by now however I 've not heard that has happened. It's football & team members getting to know each other. Had this happened in practice would you post the same thing?

:-/

Tennesseeduke

 

[VFL1953]

Wow. I just realized. I have become SJT and Butchna. And owe them both a big apology.

Months ago, I made an innocent observation about how SJT and Butchna were both really bright guys, but once they started arguing with each other, it took over a thread and made the thing unreadable.

And I just realized I'm now doing the same thing.

My deepest apologies to these two gentlemen for ever judging them without walking in their shoes first, and to all VolNation for turning a thread about the J.Bruce situation into a debate over whether athletes and soldiers have analogous lives. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Don't be too hard on yourself . Reasoned, thoughtful posts will always be welcomed at least by me, whether I agree with them or not.

 

[feathersax]

359 replies to this thread got my attention, but after reading a few I opted to trim my toenails. :snoring:

 

[508mikey]

359 replies to this thread got my attention, but after reading a few I opted to trim my toenails. :snoring:

yep

 

[NCFisher]

You, sir, are or were a poly sci or related (political philosophy, etc.) major, I divine. I studied poly sci at Indiana University while at grad school, recognize the terminology. Still a student, or now a professor / practitioner?

But allow me to correct your theory with some real world experience. In my military career, where I found the most devolution of society was in those places where the people made themselves powerless, allowing tyrants to usurp their rights. I speak of Haiti ... and of Somalia ... and of Afghanistan.

This isn't a 2nd Amendment pitch, I promise. But it is a statement about the importance of a people refusing to let themselves become soft and complacent, lest they be taken over by tyrants and find themselves unable to resist.

The best block to tyranny is a strong, self-reliant and informed populace.

Put another way: the rule of law protects us from anarchy, but only a vigilant people can protect the rule of law.

There, enough political philosophy from me.

No, a former TN farm boy with a career in telecommunications who's not seen a classroom in nearly 3.5 decades, and a 2nd Am. proponent...which means your rights stop at my nose and we debate the space between us, legally if necessary.

Rather than correcting me, you have simply approached the question from the diametric perspective of the people rather than those I spoke of; those who make and break the rules. Again, though, we are speaking of the rights of one person to not be assaulted by another, not Franco or Pinochet.

People are injured, maimed and killed by a single punch with enough regularity that - even rights aside - it is a good idea to not do so. Half a lifetime ago, a large road-rager attacked me. I tried dissuading him with deliberate shallow perforations of his upper body via screwdriver while he was mauling me, until he managed to nearly rip my eyelid off, blinding me in that eye. A switch flipped and I knew I was going to kill him; no more fooking around. I'm thankful three deputies materialized between us and that my hand had found the screwdriver in the door pocket instead of the knife normally there.

Now, this certainly doesn't rise to that level, but that and a strong constitutional-libertarian view convinces me it's best to never strike another person except in defense; you cannot begin to forecast the consequences.

 

[ValleyAlVol]

Anybody else notice that OP just kind of disappeared??

 

[peyton4heisman]

If I were Butch I would make Croom run every step in Neyland. Croom is a Senior. He should know better. There are more important things to consider here.

Butch needs to make the message loud and crystal clear:

If you are a wide receiver who expects to play, dont punch the freshmen with your fists. Hit them with a stick or a bat. You can't catch a TD against Bama with a broken hand.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

NCFisher, I respect you. You've stood toe to toe and continued this discussion in spite of being outnumbered several fold, and that takes a significant measure of fortitude. I salute you for that.

But it comes down to this: Joc Bruce was not killed or seriously injured in that fight. Nor was Jason Croom or whatever team leader actually had that role. What happened was, two high-testosterone, very proud Tennessee football players had a fight over a team tradition. One was upheld by his coaches (and presumably all his teammates) for doing the right thing ... the other decided (or was helped to decide) that perhaps he belongs somewhere else.

That is just about all we think we know. We don't know anything about bullying. We don't know who threw the first punch, or whether it started with pushing and shoving, or whether there were more than two people involved. There's a great deal we don't know.

So our entire conversation about bullying and assault, it's meaningless. It's something we did to amuse ourselves while waiting for football season to get one day closer. Our team is, as far as we know, even healthier today than it was yesterday. Things are getting sorted out.

So I wish you the best for the rest of this evening. Maybe we can argue about baseball versus ballerinas tomorrow.

 

[NCFisher]

You don't condone violence yet you are on a forum dedicated to one of the most violent sports in existence. I find people like you the most annoying of our society. You sit there with some supposed deap thought sprinkled with a decent vocabulary as if your ability to use a thesaurus makes you in some way superior. You have a problem with two grown men having a physical altercation and they along with the rest of us that agree with and understand the situation are obviously dragging our knuckles in a cave because we haven't evolved to your level. I bet you don't have a problem with 18 year old men leaving their families to go put a bullet in some other young mans head to protect your right to have and be able to voice such an ignorant opinion of how the real world works. This is a violent world we live in period and people like you are absolute proof in the fallacy of Darwinism. The only reason you're able to exist is because you are protected by those not afraid to fight. As it relates to football, I don't want a single person on our team that's not willing to stand up and fight in support of the tradition of the VOLUNTEERS. You know, the young men that went down to Texas and KILLED other young men in support of those that shared the same values of freedom.

A lot of assgumption on display there, where to begin? First, I'd be sorry my decent vocabulary offends you if it weren't for your philosophical allusion to Darwinism, and the unpleasantness with Mexico.

Football is a sport of controlled physical violence governed by rules, similar to laws regarding assault. Follow closely now: If he wished (and unless he first attacked Croom), Bruce could have Croom arrested. According to your logic, however, the mere existence of an orange, Alamo jersey on Croom's back grants him instant immunity. Don't we see enough of the folly of that logic with both active and past players to ponder the....wisdom? Reckon not....

Being the philosopher and all, tell me; since the (guffaw) 'war' with the Spanish, we've fought how many wars in direct defense of this country? Then what were all the other wars about? Does that answer your question?

 

[ClearwaterVol]

If I were Butch I would make Croom run every step in Neyland. Croom is a Senior. He should know better. There are more important things to consider here.

Butch needs to make the message loud and crystal clear:

If you are a wide receiver who expects to play, dont punch the freshmen with your fists. Hit them with a stick or a bat. You can't catch a TD against Bama with a broken hand.

Lesson one from Crash Davis.

 

[NCFisher]

yep

Funny chit...

 

[NCFisher]

You should pick another sport - maybe golf or ice skating but definitely not football where they hit each other for 60 mins. Oh dear. Did you see that mean Barnett drag a QB.

See reply XX to, well, anyone.

 

[chargervol]

NCFisher, I respect you. You've stood toe to toe and continued this discussion in spite of being outnumbered several fold, and that takes a significant measure of fortitude. I salute you for that.

But it comes down to this: Joc Bruce was not killed or seriously injured in that fight. Nor was Jason Croom or whatever team leader actually had that role. What happened was, two high-testosterone, very proud Tennessee football players had a fight over a team tradition. One was upheld by his coaches (and presumably all his teammates) for doing the right thing ... the other decided (or was helped to decide) that perhaps he belongs somewhere else.

That is just about all we think we know. We don't know anything about bullying. We don't know who threw the first punch, or whether it started with pushing and shoving, or whether there were more than two people involved. There's a great deal we don't know.

So our entire conversation about bullying and assault, it's meaningless. It's something we did to amuse ourselves while waiting for football season to get one day closer. Our team is, as far as we know, even healthier today than it was yesterday. Things are getting sorted out.

So I wish you the best for the rest of this evening. Maybe we can argue about baseball versus ballerinas tomorrow.

Well crap. I have been on your side the entire time but this sentence raises an entire new question. Is a crime only a crime, if the the "victim" suffers the harshest possible result? I punch you for being a jackass, you die, I'm a murderer? I punch you for being a jackass and you live, I'm a hero?

(as much as I would love to pursue JP being a jackass, truth is, he is a likable jackass. Just don't tell him)

This is a really interesting quandary. Well, for those of us bored enough to ponder this. :focus:

 

[NCFisher]

Apparently, that is not the case anymore. It is now old school thinking to say that someone should be kicked off the team for punching someone. The Pacific Education Group (of San Francisco) works with public school systems all across the country. They teach educators that when an African-American student is late to class, shows disrespect by talking back or is hostile toward others you are supposed to make allowances for such things because that is part of their culture. If one player offends another and the other player punches said player for the disrespect, that should be tolerated. I am not kidding. Look up the Pacific Education Group. Don't shoot the messenger.

I think you make a good point, Sig. Normalizing aberrant behavior ensures more of the same. We have a bloated, central command school district in the Charlotte area in which violent, sexual offenders literally cannot be excluded. In no small part, the police department and court system collude with the schools to keep them there rather than on the streets. We are whistling past another graveyard generation of lost children.

 

[TN_Transplant]

Regardless of the reason, I hate to see him go. I want Kids that truly wanted to play for Tennessee, and hate for them not to do that.