The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#877
#877
TBrown said:
I mean the origination of the graphic you posted was from Ballsack sports so do with that what you want.
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Are you sure they are the originator? I see that they posted the picture yesterday but this is a 2 YO NY Post article with that image

Screenshot_20220211-101431_Google.jpg
 
#883
#883
TBrown said:
This has legitimacy because the picture is real 😂
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Would make sense if I said a photo legitimized a quote.

If you just start with "the quote can't be verified" then we don't have to have 7 posts with me trying get to the truth of the matter, which is all I care about. You'd rather spend 4 posts being a sarcastic pain in the ass.
 
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#886
#886
This is interesting and something I don't think anybody understands, including myself until now:

1645464691919.png

So hand checking was illegal in the Jordan era. You could maintain contact, but "checking" was not allowed. I think the ability to maintain contact was an advantage for defenders in that era vs. what we allow now, but making the claim that they allowed hand checking is totally false. This video shows examples of how ticky-tack it could be:

 
#887
#887
n_huffhines said:
This is interesting and something I don't think anybody understands, including myself until now:

View attachment 435171

So hand checking was illegal in the Jordan era. You could maintain contact, but "checking" was not allowed. I think the ability to maintain contact was an advantage for defenders in that era vs. what we allow now, but making the claim that they allowed hand checking is totally false. This video shows examples of how ticky-tack it could be:

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I watched the video. Huh?

He says hand checking was real and provided data to reflect that (eFG). He walked through forearm checking replacing hand checking as well in the 90s. And concludes with, if hand checking wasn’t real, why did they keeping introducing new rules to phase it out.

He contradicts himself in the end with his opinion that checking was overrated. He showed clear evidence that perimeter players benefited from the mid 2000’s change to free their movement. And acknowledged that the Suns and Nash were the first to cash in on the changes. Spacing then improved because the freedom of movement changed the landscape for bigs (a point he glosses over). Then declares its impact as overrated. Huh?
 
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#888
#888
95 Vol Alum said:
I watched the video. Huh?

He says hand checking was real and provided data to reflect that (eFG). He walked through forearm checking replacing hand checking as well in the 90s. And concludes with, if hand checking wasn’t real, why did they keeping introducing new rules to phase it out.

He contradicts himself in the end with his opinion that checking was overrated. He showed clear evidence that perimeter players benefited from the mid 2000’s change to free their movement. And acknowledged that the Suns and Nash were the first to cash in on the changes. Spacing then improved because the freedom of movement changed the landscape for bigs (a point he glosses over). Then declares its impact as overrated. Huh?
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I can't speak to all the things he said but the way I'm interpreting the 1979 rule and then the change in the 2000's is that "hand-checking" has been prohibited with "rigid enforcement" for 43 years. A slick defender in 1996 could get away with impeding, but he wasn't supposed to be allowed to. And I imagine you could get away with it more against an average player vs. somebody who gets superstar calls. Also, if you can feel your opponent's body, you probably have a better idea of where he's going. Not after 2004. I remember looking at like 30 or so stars before and after the rule change and there was an increase but not a big one, and at least a handful of guys didn't see an increase.

So the point I'm trying to make is that the rule change in 2004 did favor offense, but "hand-checking" wasn't allowed in the Jordan era. That's not accurate. Hand-checking implies impediment.

I think part of what changed that everybody glosses over is the illegal D change. Things moved to the perimeter because you could double the Shaqs and Jordans of the world away from the ball. This definitely opened things up on the 3p line and pushed the game there.

Should we credit freedom of movement for the Suns success? Or was it mostly the marriage of Nash and D'Antoni? It's a chicken or the egg thing. It's hard for me to believe that shooting more 3's and spreading out the D would have been a bad idea before 2004. If the rule changes inspired the Suns to create the system, then yeah it deserves credit, but the Suns could have had the same successful system with non-impeding contact from defenders.
 
#889
#889
BTW, I think we both used "freedom of movement" wrong, which was the 2018 off-ball officiating change.
 
#890
#890
n_huffhines said:
Should we credit freedom of movement for the Suns success? Or was it mostly the marriage of Nash and D'Antoni? It's a chicken or the egg thing. It's hard for me to believe that shooting more 3's and spreading out the D would have been a bad idea before 2004. If the rule changes inspired the Suns to create the system, then yeah it deserves credit, but the Suns could have had the same successful system with non-impeding contact from defenders.
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I don't mean to disrespect - did you watch the video? He, I think rightfully, implied that Jerry Colangelo spear headed the rule changes to free up guard movement, which in turn would increase scoring/pace. They knew what the future held and adapted to it before everyone else resulting in Nash's best seasons at 30+ age.

I didn't fact check all of that, so maybe he's all wet. Basically, they implemented: strong enforcement of hand and forearm checking above the FT line; eliminated illegal defense; instituted defensive 3 seconds to clear the lane. That all but killed the outsized big man game.

As an example, I wonder how great Shaq would be in today's basketball? Particularly LAL Shaq (Orlando Shaq I think could better run the floor and play at a higher pace). Feels like he wouldn't be HOF/multiple titles great today but, of course, there is the argument that great players play great in any era.
 
#891
#891
95 Vol Alum said:
I don't mean to disrespect - did you watch the video? He, I think rightfully, implied that Jerry Colangelo spear headed the rule changes to free up guard movement, which in turn would increase scoring/pace. They knew what the future held and adapted to it before everyone else resulting in Nash's best seasons at 30+ age.

I didn't fact check all of that, so maybe he's all wet. Basically, they implemented: strong enforcement of hand and forearm checking above the FT line; eliminated illegal defense; instituted defensive 3 seconds to clear the lane. That all but killed the outsized big man game.

As an example, I wonder how great Shaq would be in today's basketball? Particularly LAL Shaq (Orlando Shaq I think could better run the floor and play at a higher pace). Feels like he wouldn't be HOF/multiple titles great today but, of course, there is the argument that great players play great in any era.
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LAL Shaq could score all day but teams would try to get him to show on screens and get him out of the key, running around on D. The pace would be so hard for him. He'd have to slim down like Jokic did. Orlando Shaq might be the most terrifying thing we ever saw on a basketball court. Put him in today's NBA, OMG.

I was literally watching the video on a zoom work call with no audio, just reading the rule changes and watching the play breakdowns. IDK anything the guy was saying unless it was spelled out on the screen, which is why I said I couldn't speak to it.

I didn't know that Colangelo was in charge of the rules committee (and turns out he was in charge of that for the zone D change in 2002, as well).

It's funny that the NBA tried to do this 3x, but it didn't have the permanent desired effect until 2004. One aspect of it that I love is that they took all the subjectivity out of the call by not allowing contact.
 
#892
#892
Usually, people, and especially a lot of old heads, will say defenses were much tougher back in the day, and even though that might be somewhat true, the reality is the spacing has changed dramatically. According to Williams, Jordan was able to score at such a tremendous degree because of the absence of illegal defense and its coverage. That means if you see Jordan setting up to catch for an ISO, and you know Longley isn't going to shoot a three. So you cannot leave Luc until Jordan catches the ball, or you will be whistled for illegal defense, giving the Bulls a technical free throw. This basically guaranteed that you could have a second or so to attack against single coverage on any isolation. For great iso scorers, this was often more than enough to get yourself in a position where no amount of help defense could stop you.

"When MJ played, the refs would [call you for] illegal defense, which would be a shot and a ball from the side. What that meant was, let's say MJ had the ball on the wing, and his primary defender was guarding him. And then the guy on the weak side and the weak side corner, whoever was guarding that guy, had to stay on the opposite block. So MJ had to beat that first guy, and that primary defender had no chance because nobody can guard nobody one-on-one, especially Michael Jordan." ​
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"Nowadays, they changed the rule, and if LeBron has the ball on the wing, that primary defender is right there, and there is a secondary defender on the ball side elbow, and he has another secondary defender at the ball side block. He is not worried about the primary defender because he goes by him and makes the right pass. I think LeBron receives a lot of ******** at the end of games because he doesn't take the shot because he makes the right play for a guy that is wide open, and of course, he is going to make that play. Where MJ when he played, there was that illegal defense ****, so he would get by his guy and score all the time because he only had one guy."​
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Jason Williams explains how Michael Jordan faced weak defenses compared to LeBron James: "Now it's harder to score in the NBA than it was back then"
 
#893
#893
Not a comment about anybody here, but the people saying they don't care that 37 yo Lebron just did 30 off 22 fgapg because he missed the playoff are some of the same people who celebrate 38 yo Jordan scoring 23 ppg off 22 while missing the playoffs.
 
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#894
#894
278082928_1218080625681498_7166888549761806665_n.jpg
 
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