Source of O-Line Woes?

[BlackCreekVol]

This thread's intent is not to bash the o-line but to discuss the underlying cause of our O-Line issues? We've seen very poor blocking the first 3 games with penalties, missed assignments and a general lack of push. I'm not big on the "no talent" argument and compiled the recruiting #'s (readily available measure of talent and demand but not the end all be all). It certainly doesn't appear like we're marching a bunch of scrubs out there.

Pos Player Name Year 247 Composite Offers # Notable Other Offers
LT1 Trey Smith SO 0.99 5* 26 Everyone
LT2 Nathan Niehaus SO 0.84 3* 9 Cinci, Louisville
LG1 Jahmir Johnson JR 0.89 3* JUCO 20 USC, NEB, Multiple SEC
LG2 K'Rojhn Calbert SO 0.86 3* 12 FL, Multiple SEC
C1 Ryan Johnson SO 0.91 4* 12 Al, Clem, Mich, ND
C2 Riley Locklear SO 0.86 3* 22 FSU, Miami, Penn, Ore
RG1 Jerome Carvin FR 0.89 4* 18 AL, FL, Mich, AU, A&M
RG2 Chance Hall JR 0.86 3 * 9 Mich, ND, Maryland
RT1 Drew Richmond JR 0.97 4* 29 Everyone
RT2 Marcus Tatum SO 0.88 3* 24 AL, FL, Stan, AU, Miami

Is it that they are that underdeveloped from the previous regime? Is it that they're learning a new blocking scheme and playbook that is way different from previous years? They look fairly young as a unit so maybe that's the issue. One things for certain, they need to make giant leaps as a unit to compete with the gauntlet of SEC defensive fronts they are about to face. What's your thoughts Volnation?

 

[vol-un-tear]

I hope they click Saturday! GBO!!

 

[UTK]

It IS a lack of talent. You have to realize just because they were great players in HS, that doesn’t always automatically translate to great in college. Players still need to be developed and quite frankly the previous staff failed to do so.

 

[05_never_again]

With the exception of Trey Smith, who is just one of those exceptionally gifted guys who would excel anywhere, I think it is pretty apparent why they struggle and you hit on both reasons.

Number one, they were underdeveloped by the previous coaching staff (both physically in the S&C program and basic technique-wise). I just don't buy that every single one of those guys with the exception of Smith is an underachiever/bust who would have busted at any other school.

Number two, they are learning a new blocking scheme and doing a lot of thinking instead of playing. Even if they were a great O-line last year, I'd expect to see a few growing pains. Given that they were awful last year...eek.

 

[sjt18]

This thread's intent is not to bash the o-line but to discuss the underlying cause of our O-Line issues? We've seen very poor blocking the first 3 games with penalties, missed assignments and a general lack of push. I'm not big on the "no talent" argument and compiled the recruiting #'s (readily available measure of talent and demand but not the end all be all). It certainly doesn't appear like we're marching a bunch of scrubs out there.

Pos Player Name Year 247 Composite Offers # Notable Other Offers
LT1 Trey Smith SO 0.99 5* 26 Everyone
LT2 Nathan Niehaus SO 0.84 3* 9 Cinci, Louisville
LG1 Jahmir Johnson JR 0.89 3* JUCO 20 USC, NEB, Multiple SEC
LG2 K'Rojhn Calbert SO 0.86 3* 12 FL, Multiple SEC
C1 Ryan Johnson SO 0.91 4* 12 Al, Clem, Mich, ND
C2 Riley Locklear SO 0.86 3* 22 FSU, Miami, Penn, Ore
RG1 Jerome Carvin FR 0.89 4* 18 AL, FL, Mich, AU, A&M
RG2 Chance Hall JR 0.86 3 * 9 Mich, ND, Maryland
RT1 Drew Richmond JR 0.97 4* 29 Everyone
RT2 Marcus Tatum SO 0.88 3* 24 AL, FL, Stan, AU, Miami

Is it that they are that underdeveloped from the previous regime? Is it that they're learning a new blocking scheme and playbook that is way different from previous years? They look fairly young as a unit so maybe that's the issue. One things for certain, they need to make giant leaps as a unit to compete with the gauntlet of SEC defensive fronts they are about to face. What's your thoughts Volnation?

Part of the problem was that Jones thought you could use undersized "quick" OL's in his perfect offensive scheme. He was going to reinvent offense in the SEC you know...

What he apparently didn't get is that the 320 lb OL's in the SEC are quicker and more athletic than the 290 lb guys he had at Cincy and wanted to recreate at UT.

Smith at 320 is SEC in every respect. Niehaus probably weighs in the 290's. He's marginally big enough to play OT but is needed at OG. Jahmir Johnson is also undersized out of JUCO. Ryan Johnson gained up to 300 since Pruitt arrived but needs to be closer to 310. Locklear is in the 290-300 range iirc. Carvin is a Fr but has the right measurables. Hall needs to be healthy. Tatum is also undersized to play in the middle where he's needed and marginal to play OT.

Richmond has the right measurables but doesn't have great feet or power.

Part of what we're seeing is lack of S&C prior to this past January.

Part is the "techniques" Jones demanded his OL coach teach. One of the first whispered criticisms came from the OL's he inherited and alum OL's who watched practice. They were confused by the techniques he was trying to get the OL's to do. Many here of course blamed the players and Dooley. Time proved that Jones flatout didn't know what he was doing with regard to OL techniques.

Part is just mistakes by guys being asked to work together to execute a new scheme with limited time together as a unit.

UT could use more quality depth. Some of those guys aren't as talented as expected. There are a lot of moving parts for the coaches to work on at the same time.

 

[05_never_again]

It IS a lack of talent. You have to realize just because they were great players in HS, that doesn’t always automatically translate to great in college. Players still need to be developed and quite frankly the previous staff failed to do so.

"Lack of talent" and failure to develop aren't the same thing. In fact, they are the exact opposite. Saying that the players failed to be developed presumes that there is talent there to begin with. If you think there is a lack of talent on the O-line (and the D-line too for that matter), then you're saying that the recruiting services all happened to be wrong about just the guys who ended up going to Tennessee. I get being wrong about 2 or 3 out of 10, but 8 or 9 out of 10? Come on now. I hate to say it, but I'm sure if some of these guys went to another big time school on their offer list, we're talking NFL draft.

It is, in all likelihood, not a lack of talent. Lack of talent means that even with the best coaching in the world, these guys still wouldn't be all that good. I don't think that's the case.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

I think it's all a mattter of development. The natural ability is there, but the previous staff did a terrible job with player development. We saw it with player after player. The came in looking like world beaters as freshmen, only to get progressively worse the longer they were in the program. It's going to take a lot longer than I had hoped to fix it. That's why CJP went after so many grad transfers and jucos.

 

[dduncan4163]

These kids have been under coached an poorly conditioned for some time. The coaching and conditioning is finally back were it needs to be but live action is the only sure way to get them to gel.

 

[BlackCreekVol]

It IS a lack of talent. You have to realize just because they were great players in HS, that doesn’t always automatically translate to great in college. Players still need to be developed and quite frankly the previous staff failed to do so.

I refer to "talent" as the intangibles.....Size, speed, and general athletic ability

 

[landscapingvol]

Simply because a recruit claims to have multiple "offers" doesn't make them true, the fact is over the last several year most highly rated recruits that choose to come to UT over Bama, Georgia, etc. are either legacy recruits or have major issues. Are there exceptions? Sure, but there were rumblings of Richmond's character coming out of high school as with Preston Williams, Bryce Brown, Janzen Jackson, Nukeese Richardson, Tyler Bray, etc. while others had questions about their level of competition/ability including Kongbo, Chris Donald, Kenneth George, etc. There have been some players that we have produced that were highly sought after by other schools and it showed: Eric Berry, Ben Martin at times, Trey Smith, Derek Barnett, Jalen Hurd, etc. but those players have been few and far between over the last decade. Going back to the Fulmer years we didn't have to take many risks recruiting but we have had to take several risks on "highly" rated recruits and unfortunately many have backfired.

 

[90 Vol]

This thread's intent is not to bash the o-line but to discuss the underlying cause of our O-Line issues? We've seen very poor blocking the first 3 games with penalties, missed assignments and a general lack of push. I'm not big on the "no talent" argument and compiled the recruiting #'s (readily available measure of talent and demand but not the end all be all). It certainly doesn't appear like we're marching a bunch of scrubs out there.

Pos Player Name Year 247 Composite Offers # Notable Other Offers
LT1 Trey Smith SO 0.99 5* 26 Everyone
LT2 Nathan Niehaus SO 0.84 3* 9 Cinci, Louisville
LG1 Jahmir Johnson JR 0.89 3* JUCO 20 USC, NEB, Multiple SEC
LG2 K'Rojhn Calbert SO 0.86 3* 12 FL, Multiple SEC
C1 Ryan Johnson SO 0.91 4* 12 Al, Clem, Mich, ND
C2 Riley Locklear SO 0.86 3* 22 FSU, Miami, Penn, Ore
RG1 Jerome Carvin FR 0.89 4* 18 AL, FL, Mich, AU, A&M
RG2 Chance Hall JR 0.86 3 * 9 Mich, ND, Maryland
RT1 Drew Richmond JR 0.97 4* 29 Everyone
RT2 Marcus Tatum SO 0.88 3* 24 AL, FL, Stan, AU, Miami

Is it that they are that underdeveloped from the previous regime? Is it that they're learning a new blocking scheme and playbook that is way different from previous years? They look fairly young as a unit so maybe that's the issue. One things for certain, they need to make giant leaps as a unit to compete with the gauntlet of SEC defensive fronts they are about to face. What's your thoughts Volnation?

I think all of the above to some extent. I will say that a lot of O Line penalties stem from getting whipped at the point of attack. All lineman hold, but you'll usually get called when the d lineman achieves some separation...O lineman got whipped. False starts are somewhat mental but can be because the lineman is trying to get a head start on the block because you are getting "out quicked" at the point of attack.

 

[trion23]

It's a combination of things, but per your post above we are NOT loaded at talent at O-line. Back in the years when the Vols played the way we expect them to, most of our O-line starters would be 4 or 5 star upperclassmen.

Trey Smith has lived up to his 5* rating. Drew Richmond obviously has not lived up to his 4* rating. The only other two 4-stars you listed are BOTH underclassmen.

There was clearly underdevelopment under the previous coaching staff. And we've heard a lot about underdevelopment in the weight room.

However, I think this group will continue to improve all season - barring other serious injuries. I thought I saw improved blocking Saturday - dumb penalties notwithstanding. One thing that stands out about this group is they're a pretty young group of linemen.

Go Vols!

 

[05_never_again]

Part is the "techniques" Jones demanded his OL coach teach. One of the first whispered criticisms came from the OL's he inherited and alum OL's who watched practice. They were confused by the techniques he was trying to get the OL's to do. Many here of course blamed the players and Dooley. Time proved that Jones flatout didn't know what he was doing with regard to OL techniques.

I can see that being the case. The philosophy of a lot of mid-major coaches is to simply recruit better than their conference foes because you can be pretty good at that level simply by having better players. You don't really have to teach them all that much because that level of play isn't as competitive as the P5 conferences.

Butch valued recruiting ability over ability to teach technique on his staffs, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. There were exceptions (Shoop, Gillespie) but that was what he did for the most part.

 

[Behr]

I hope they click Saturday! GBO!!

Me too brother, and not just for the obvious reasons. If they dont, and lose...this place will get yougly, people will get feelers hurt, some will get banned others will go to jail. It will not be pretty.

 

[05_never_again]

It's a combination of things, but per your post above we are NOT loaded at talent at O-line. Back in the years when the Vols played the way we expect them to, most of our O-line starters would be 4 or 5 star upperclassmen.

Trey Smith has lived up to his 5* rating. Drew Richmond obviously has not lived up to his 4* rating. The only other two 4-stars you listed are BOTH underclassmen.

There was clearly underdevelopment under the previous coaching staff. And we've heard a lot about underdevelopment in the weight room.

However, I think this group will continue to improve all season - barring other serious injuries. I thought I saw improved blocking Saturday - dumb penalties notwithstanding. One thing that stands out about this group is they're a pretty young group of linemen.

Go Vols!

Tennessee should currently have 3 really good/elite offensive linemen...Smith, Richmond, and Hall. Trey Smith is Trey Smith, no complaints there. Richmond is nothing but a turnstile and perhaps the most disappointing player currently on the team (either him or Kongbo). While technically a 4-star, he missed out on a 5-star by a whisker and was the #3 OT in the entire country. Massive disappointment. Hall wasn't as highly recruited as some, and he's had injuries, but he's a veteran and when he's in there he's also a turnstile.

 

[KBVol]

It IS a lack of talent. You have to realize just because they were great players in HS, that doesn’t always automatically translate to great in college. Players still need to be developed and quite frankly the previous staff failed to do so.

I would add technique, confusion of what is surely the most difficult position group for young and new players to play. And quite honestly, most of the guys we have, the guys left over from Jones, are not of the aggressive emotional makeup needed to play at this level. A lot of moving parts imo and it’s not a quick fix.

 

[rickyb712]

TOUGHNESS AND NASTY STREAK> WE DON'T HAVE IT.

 

[Nocleats]

TOUGHNESS AND NASTY STREAK> WE DON'T HAVE IT.

This times 1000. Need some mean, and dirty, yes dirty, players who will do whatever it takes to end your day.

 

[carpbc]

We should remember that many coaching staffs offer 3*'s mainly to keep them away from rival teams... to have depth at a position, and in hopes of finding a "diamond in the rough" that you hope you can coach up and develop into 4* and maybe 5* level players. You will notice that 60% of the players you listed are 3*'s. They were coached by Jones and company prior to the current staff; therefore, they have been poisoned by a "we're beat already... let's give up" mentality. Those players will need time to be coached up - if they can be... or replaced in time by players through the recruiting process and by graduate transfers. Unfortunately, Coach Pruitt and staff... has to deal with the ashes of the dumpster fire Butch and company left behind. The mess wasn't made in just one season, and it will take more than one season (recruiting and player development) to clean up the mess. We fans need to realize this and stand behind our team and our coaches... and encourage them throughout the process. So, can we stop the whining, pull up our big boy pants, and keep on yelling, "GO VOLS ! ! !" as loudly as possible?

 

[sjt18]

It's a combination of things, but per your post above we are NOT loaded at talent at O-line. Back in the years when the Vols played the way we expect them to, most of our O-line starters would be 4 or 5 star upperclassmen.

Go Vols!

In his prime, Fulmer did a good job of finding 2* and 3* OL's that ended up being really good. I remember several 4/5* OL busts. Lots of programs put together good OL's without getting any 4/5* players. IIRC, one of Mizzou's OL's when they won the East had a couple of 2* guys and a guy that wasn't even ranked from Montana or something. My reason for posting this is that I won't be upset if Pruitt recruits and signs 3* guys he believes in for the OL rather than 4/5* guys.

There is talent on this OL. They don't have good size and are having to unlearn then relearn how to block. But they can take a huge leap forward if they just stop making mental errors. IMO, Ryan Johnson and Carvin took a nice step forward in that regard Saturday. Richmond and Smith don't make that many mental mistakes though Richmond sometimes gets physically whipped. Jahmir Johnson just looks lost much of the time... and he gets physically whipped at times too.

 

[awaitingawin]

Part of the problem was that Jones thought you could use undersized "quick" OL's in his perfect offensive scheme. He was going to reinvent offense in the SEC you know...

What he apparently didn't get is that the 320 lb OL's in the SEC are quicker and more athletic than the 290 lb guys he had at Cincy and wanted to recreate at UT.

Smith at 320 is SEC in every respect. Niehaus probably weighs in the 290's. He's marginally big enough to play OT but is needed at OG. Jahmir Johnson is also undersized out of JUCO. Ryan Johnson gained up to 300 since Pruitt arrived but needs to be closer to 310. Locklear is in the 290-300 range iirc. Carvin is a Fr but has the right measurables. Hall needs to be healthy. Tatum is also undersized to play in the middle where he's needed and marginal to play OT.

Richmond has the right measurables but doesn't have great feet or power.

Part of what we're seeing is lack of S&C prior to this past January.

Part is the "techniques" Jones demanded his OL coach teach. One of the first whispered criticisms came from the OL's he inherited and alum OL's who watched practice. They were confused by the techniques he was trying to get the OL's to do. Many here of course blamed the players and Dooley. Time proved that Jones flatout didn't know what he was doing with regard to OL techniques.

Part is just mistakes by guys being asked to work together to execute a new scheme with limited time together as a unit.

UT could use more quality depth. Some of those guys aren't as talented as expected. There are a lot of moving parts for the coaches to work on at the same time.

For the most part I think you are correct. I have seen a little improvement. The best point I think you made is that they have not had anytime together as a unit.
Honestly I am not worried about the penalties right now. But as these guys get the hang of playing together as a unit they will most definitely improve.
We already know throughout the fall camp the coaches were trying to put the best pieces together.
We have excellent coaches. It will take time. They need our support. If we went 3-9 this year I will still say we have one of the best coaching staffs in college football. It also takes time for them as a unit also. All I have to say is good things about our coaches

 

[sechamp2012]

I get the feeling I'll come on here in 3 years and the excuse will still be Butch butchered it and the S&C needs work and we are still a young team.

 

[sjt18]

We should remember that many coaching staffs offer 3*'s mainly to keep them away from rival teams... to have depth at a position, and in hopes of finding a "diamond in the rough" that you hope you can coach up and develop into 4* and maybe 5* level players. You will notice that 60% of the players you listed are 3*'s. They were coached by Jones and company prior to the current staff; therefore, they have been poisoned by a "we're beat already... let's give up" mentality. Those players will need time to be coached up - if they can be... or replaced in time by players through the recruiting process and by graduate transfers. Unfortunately, Coach Pruitt and staff... has to deal with the ashes of the dumpster fire Butch and company left behind. The mess wasn't made in just one season, and it will take more than one season (recruiting and player development) to clean up the mess. We fans need to realize this and stand behind our team and our coaches... and encourage them throughout the process. So, can we stop the whining, pull up our big boy pants, and keep on yelling, "GO VOLS ! ! !" as loudly as possible?

OL is the hardest position for the recruiting sites to evaluate. Size doesn't always translate directly into performance. Even a combination of measurables do not accurately predict OL success as much as for a RB or DE.

Zach Fulton was a 3* recruit... JerQuari Schofield was a 4* and really talked up as a recruit... he was thought by some to be a surefire star.

 

[sjt18]

I get the feeling I'll come on here in 3 years and the excuse will still be Butch butchered it and the S&C needs work and we are still a young team.

Did you mean to say Pruitt? If so... yeah... a lot of these comments sound like the ones we heard 5 years ago. The difference to me is that for all his flaws Dooley didn't try to reinvent offense in the SEC. Jones saw himself as an innovator. Dooley may have been too "CEO" in his approach but Chaney and Pittman were better at developing OL's than Jones and any combination of offensive assistants he had.

 

[Halph66]

O-line is the hardest position in football to learn. We have to get where there are experienced linemen (Jr. & Sr.) with talent so that the Freshmen can redshirt and be brought on slowly. The defenses today are very complicated (multiple) and hard to learn how to block.

CPF put a priority on D-linemen. If they didn't pan out on defense they were moved to o-line. That gives you an athletic o-lineman. The past regimes did not make linemen a priority. Dooley went one year without signing one lineman. Jones wanted small and fast. We are paying the price of past mistakes. CJP wants big athletic linemen of the past. We just don't have all the studs that we need. I do see an improvement over last year though.