Jamal Lewis article

[GrudenVol5th]

These guys knew what they were getting into. They just didn't care when they played. I can't feel sorry for millionaires.

That’s terrible...know amount of money can replace your health

Their wasn’t a lot of research on CTE back then. The players that play now....they definitely Know

 

[Remy]

I'm pulling for Jamal and tickled this article did not mysteriously morph into a "UT did me wrong and made me eat tacos for 4 years" story. The game IS changing for the better and I agree at the grassroots and that is a good thing. I literally recall one of our high school coaches who famously screamed at us to "put a hat on him" the whole time we were in school. He did it not because he wanted us injured or to have a less than stellar life, he did it because he along with the rest of us playing and coaching back then were ignorant concerning brain injuries and concussions. I literally did not think I made a good hit unless I saw a few stars or heard ringing because ... I was ignorant.

 

[EZE]

These guys knew what they were getting into. They just didn't care when they played. I can't feel sorry for millionaires.

Nobody knew the full extent of the risk when Lewis played, except maybe the NFL leadership (and that is only an allegation). A true understanding of the risk has only been fully publicized for what, the past 5-10 years? You and Gator are just wrong on your assumptions that the players knowingly took this risk in the past.

Now, with current players and going forward, they have that knowledge and they assume the risk when they play. But, same with ownership, coaches, etc. And that is why we are seeing the game changed.

 

[vol66]

I hate to be that guy, but either we live in the United States of America and have the freedom to make choices or we don't. Or we want to change America so that you don't have the freedom to make choices.

And as Americans we have a responsibility to accept the consequences of the choices that we make in order to preserve that freedom (if we want it).

Hate to get political, but it is what it is.

People make poor decisions everyday that effect their health, well being, etc. We consume alcohol. We gamble. We smoke. Some want drugs to be legalized. Add that to the list. We have boxing. We have MMA. We have auto racing. We ride motorcycles, sometimes without a helmet. I can go on and on.

And like smoking, people today know what they are getting themselves into. When people ask about football dying, I tell them to watch the NFL draft. Every damn one of them is happy as hell to be selected and there are many, many more pissed off that they weren't selected.

And it goes beyond that. There are guys who play in the CFL for a fraction of the salary. There are arena leagues. There are other obscure leagues (like wherever the hell it was that Jared Lorenzen was playing football for a period of time).

I don't want anyone to get hurt playing football. But, that isn't the world we live in.

We also live in a world, in a country, where there is recourse for getting hurt on the job. Whether it's workman's comp or collecting disability...to say that people of his generation knew about the risks, when the NFL was doing everything in their power to cover it up is sickening.

Roger Goodell is bad for anyone other than the NFL owners.

 

[99gator]

Nobody knew the full extent of the risk when Lewis played, except maybe the NFL leadership (and that is only an allegation). A true understanding of the risk has only been fully publicized for what, the past 5-10 years? You and Gator are just wrong on your assumptions that the players knowingly took this risk in the past.

Now, with current players and going forward, they have that knowledge and they assume the risk when they play. But, same with ownership, coaches, etc. And that is why we are seeing the game changed.

To clarify, I meant that football players have known for years that playing football is bad for your body.

It's not just CTE. Look at Jim Otto. Look at Daryl Stingley and the amount of players who have been paralyzed as a result of playing football. Look at Ryan Shazier.

And with regard to CTE, I will use the comparison to smoking again.

It didn't take a genius to figure out that smoking was bad for your health long before somebody decided to slap a warning label on a pack of cigarettes.

It also didn't take a genius to figure out that two objects with great size colliding at great speed over and over again was going to be a problem for your long term health.

Now, while many of these injuries are not fatal, all you have to do is watch former players walk around (if they can walk) and see what damage they have done to themselves.

When these discussions come up, I always paste this article regarding Jason Taylor.

Dan Le Batard: Jason Taylor’s pain shows NFL’s world of hurt | Miami Herald

Do you think he and others like him didn't know that stuff like this is a really bad idea?

Anyone wonder how close Peyton Manning came from doing tragic permanent damage to himself. And he continued to play. He'd probably play right now if he could.

 

[99gator]

We also live in a world, in a country, where there is recourse for getting hurt on the job. Whether it's workman's comp or collecting disability...to say that people of his generation knew about the risks, when the NFL was doing everything in their power to cover it up is sickening.

Roger Goodell is bad for anyone other than the NFL owners.

That's an issue to be collectively bargained between the league and the player's association.

I agree with you here. And if the players cared more about this kind of thing than kneeling for the national anthem, it would serve them a whole hell of a lot better.

But, they don't.

I agree with the general sentiment that before a certain time period, players didn't know the risks and there is more of a pass for them.

Although, as I previously said, they knew playing football could do great damage to their bodies.

 

[jakez4ut]

To clarify, I meant that football players have known for years that playing football is bad for your body.

It's not just CTE. Look at Jim Otto. Look at Daryl Stingley and the amount of players who have been paralyzed as a result of playing football. Look at Ryan Shazier.

And with regard to CTE, I will use the comparison to smoking again.

It didn't take a genius to figure out that smoking was bad for your health long before somebody decided to slap a warning label on a pack of cigarettes.

It also didn't take a genius to figure out that two objects with great size colliding at great speed over and over again was going to be a problem for your long term health.

Now, while many of these injuries are not fatal, all you have to do is watch former players walk around (if they can walk) and see what damage they have done to themselves.

When these discussions come up, I always paste this article regarding Jason Taylor.

Dan Le Batard: Jason Taylor’s pain shows NFL’s world of hurt | Miami Herald

Do you think he and others like him didn't know that stuff like this is a really bad idea?

Anyone wonder how close Peyton Manning came from doing tragic permanent damage to himself. And he continued to play. He'd probably play right now if he could.

That article is crazy

 

[vol66]

That's an issue to be collectively bargained between the league and the player's association.

I agree with you here. And if the players cared more about this kind of thing than kneeling for the national anthem, it would serve them a whole hell of a lot better.

But, they don't.

I agree with the general sentiment that before a certain time period, players didn't know the risks and there is more of a pass for them.

Although, as I previously said, they knew playing football could do great damage to their bodies.

First. I agree that players are prepared to face the physical problems they are likely to endure later. Many, like Jamal, wonder what there other options are?

So it's interesting that you bring up kneeling for the anthem, a protest regarding equal treatment.

Second. History will not be on the side of Roger Goodell when it comes to either issue in my opinion.

Finally, CTE is hardly well understood, certainly among the living, and the NFL should be pouring money into the research rather than fighting off lawsuits from former players and their families. They should do more to help these guys when they retire, whether they ask for it or not.

 

[99gator]

That article is crazy

Glad you read the article.

I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

 

[99gator]

First. I agree that players are prepared to face the physical problems they are likely to endure later. Many, like Jamal, wonder what there other options are?

So it's interesting that you bring up kneeling for the anthem, a protest regarding equal treatment.

Second. History will not be on the side of Roger Goodell when it comes to either issue in my opinion.

Finally, CTE is hardly well understood, certainly among the living, and the NFL should be pouring money into the research rather than fighting off lawsuits from former players and their families. They should do more to help these guys when they retire, whether they ask for it or not.

Again, that's something for the NFLPA to take on the NFL over.

It is well known that the NFLPA is the weakest union in all of professional sports.

The players CAN make the NFL do more about medical costs and long term care after their playing careers are over.

But, and I'm sorry if it's upsetting, the players have shown more spunk, more unity, more tenacity in the national anthem issue than this issue. I don't think that's debatable.

Since I dipped into the national anthem thing, let me be clear on my stance. I really don't care. I don't. I don't like it, but I don't care. HOWEVER....(1) whether it was their intent or not, you should know it's going to offend some people. (2) it's not a freedom of speech issue. The government is not arresting anyone for kneeling. So, no one's freedoms are being taken away. These guys are trying to do something while on the job that most everyone else can not do in their job. Look at all of the journalists from ESPN and other places who have been fired or resigned because of things they said on the air or twitter. Just today, "Roseanne" was cancelled because of something she said on twitter. Her freedom of speech was not violated and her employer had every right to do what they did.

 

[OnlyGodForgives]

The NFL is dealing with adults, albeit ones completely uneducated as to the science behind their injuries. Every level at which young people engage in this sport is failing to present the facts to parents and the players as they mature and get stronger, faster, and more lethal.

 

[vol66]

Again, that's something for the NFLPA to take on the NFL over.

It is well known that the NFLPA is the weakest union in all of professional sports.

The players CAN make the NFL do more about medical costs and long term care after their playing careers are over.

But, and I'm sorry if it's upsetting, the players have shown more spunk, more unity, more tenacity in the national anthem issue than this issue. I don't think that's debatable.

I agree with your first point here, weakest union. They can in the short term if they walk out, but as your Jayson Taylor article points out...for many the mindset is “The things we do,” he explains. “Players play. It is who we are. We always think we can overcome.”

It's not at all upsetting to me 99, it's all part of the same issue.

In about 1984 I played a HS game, never came out of the game...woke up with a head ache so severe that my eyelids hurt to the touch, could not open my eyes, stayed out of school on Monday and was at practice on Tuesday.

As a HS assistant now, that no longer happens...and I give the NFL no credit for that being the case.

 

[vol66]

While we are posting articles on the issue...


He Helped Ex-Players Get Benefits. His Family Is Still Waiting. - The New York Times

 

[vol66]

Just today, "Roseanne" was cancelled because of something she said on twitter. Her freedom of speech was not violated and her employer had every right to do what they did.

And it just so happens that Starbucks shut it down for the day, the same day Ms. Barr was losing her job.

I'm sure Mr. Kapernick wishes the NFL would see the same injustice as a coffee chain.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Witch Doctor say give the ball to Jamal! Witch Doctor say one tough mudda running the rock.

BNL

 

[Behr]

These guys knew what they were getting into. They just didn't care when they played. I can't feel sorry for millionaires.

Piss poor attitude.

 

[VolGee4]

The thing that gets me is the current players getting upset when they are fined for controversial hits and then recently retired players complaining about the complications.

While these are all recent events, the league is actually trying to deter certain types of hits. You can't have it both ways.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The human body, like any complex machine, has a limited functional life. It wears out. And all the pieces never wear out at the same speed.

For folks with a sedentary lifestyle (teachers, office workers), it's kind of a crap shoot what part is going to give out first. The heart? kidney? mind (dementia, for example)?

But for people who use their bodies to make a living, it's a bit less random. Soldiers, firemen, farmers and ranchers, roughnecks, fishermen, and yes, professional athletes, they all kind of know they're going to trade physical health for income. Sometimes it's a sudden thing, an accident or injury, but other times it's a slow, cumulative buildup from the body being stressed over, and over, and over again.

So now we're learning a lot more about that mysterious body part, the human brain. It has, much more than the lungs or spleen or muscles or skeleton, been an enigma to us for most of human history. But we've developed tools lately to allow us to see what's happening, way down at the cellular and even molecular level, inside our skulls. Without invasive surgery.

And guess what: the brain gets worn down and torn apart, too.

Here's a question: is it special, in some way? Is an old football player or boxer with CTE and that illness' debilitating effects better or worse off than the old soldier with no legs and only one arm? Or the fireman who has to carry an oxygen cylinder everywhere he goes, who always feels kind of like he's drowning, every breath, all day, every day?

*shrug* I don't know the answer to that. Injuries to the mind feel "different" somehow than injuries to the body. Seems more personal, if no more tragic.

The one big difference here is that most of those professions are related to our society's survival and well-being. We need food to eat. Help when something goes terribly wrong. Protection from terrorists and maniacs like Hitler. Sport, on the other hand, is a pastime. Leisure, entertainment. We could do without football, much as I hate to think of a future without it.

But what is it worth to us?

As long as we value entertainment highly enough to make millionaires of the best entertainers, there will be no shortage of young men willing to trade health for income on a football field. The talent pool will never "dry up," though some prognosticators imagine it will.

So it's up to us as a society to decide whether it's worth it. The entertainment of millions in exchange for the mental injury of scores or hundreds. That's the calculus.

So far, I haven't seen our society deciding it's not worth it. We're just talking about mitigating the effects...finding ways to reduce "scores or hundreds" down a bit.

And maybe that's the right answer. Or maybe not. Only thing we know for sure is, it's a fairly simple question with very complicated elements.

 

[99gator]

And it just so happens that Starbucks shut it down for the day, the same day Ms. Barr was losing her job.

I'm sure Mr. Kapernick wishes the NFL would see the same injustice as a coffee chain.

It’s apples and oranges.

Whether one supports what they are doing or not, Starbucks is addressing an issue(s) stemming from events that took place at Starbucks chains. And Starbucks can handle that any way they see fit that they think best helps their business moving forward.

The Colin Kaepernick situation was regarding a national issue that had nothing to do with the NFL. And now the NFL is being sucked into a political issue that they were not involved in in any way. Worse, they are being brow beaten for making a decision that they believe is in their best business interest moving forward over an issue they had nothing to do with. And that proves my point even more about CTE because that is an NFL issue and these guys don’t care a lick

 

[VolGee4]

It’s apples and oranges.

Whether one supports what they are doing or not, Starbucks is addressing an issue(s) stemming from events that took place at Starbucks chains. And Starbucks can handle that any way they see fit that they think best helps their business moving forward.

The Colin Kaepernick situation was regarding a national issue that had nothing to do with the NFL. And now the NFL is being sucked into a political issue that they were not involved in in any way. Worse, they are being brow beaten for making a decision that they believe is in their best business interest moving forward over an issue they had nothing to do with

I was going to respond in a similar manner as this but decided to refrain. I was afraid it would turn political. But this is exactly how I see it as well.

 

[TJ1985]

It’s apples and oranges.

Whether one supports what they are doing or not, Starbucks is addressing an issue(s) stemming from events that took place at Starbucks chains. And Starbucks can handle that any way they see fit that they think best helps their business moving forward.

The Colin Kaepernick situation was regarding a national issue that had nothing to do with the NFL. And now the NFL is being sucked into a political issue that they were not involved in in any way. Worse, they are being brow beaten for making a decision that they believe is in their best business interest moving forward over an issue they had nothing to do with. And that proves my point even more about CTE because that is an NFL issue and these guys don’t care a lick

So, you don't think the NFL can mandate employee policy at the workplace, but Starbucks can?

 

[volbeast33]

I watched the movie Concussion with Will Smith recently. No way does my son ever play football.

My son starts his first season this year.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It’s apples and oranges.

It's actually apples and apples in several big ways.

1. Both concern the national debate on race relations.
2. Both involve businesses making decisions concerning their stance in this national debate.
3. Neither business "went looking for this fight"; both had the need to make a decision forced upon them by an employee's actions.
4. Both businesses' decisions are being questioned, because both fall well short of "the wisdom of Solomon" (in fairness, not sure there are any really good options available).

Here, I'll prove the apples and apples nature of these two cases. I'm going to substitute one name for another, using your own words. See if they still sound true:

"Whether one supports what they are doing or not, the NFL is addressing an issue stemming from events that took place at their stadiums. And the NFL can handle that any way they see fit that they think best helps their enterprise moving forward."

Sure, that sounds valid.

Now the other:

"The Starbucks situation was regarding a national issue that had nothing to do with Starbucks. And now Starbucks has been sucked into a political issue that they were not involved in in any way. Worse, they are being brow beaten for making a decision that they believe is in their best business interest moving forward over an issue they had nothing to do with."

Yep, that one sounds equally valid switched around.

Sure, the two businesses have taken very different decisions; gone in different directions. Starbucks came down strongly on the side of reform--let's hold training sessions to end unconscious bias and prejudice. Meanwhile, the NFL tried to walk a tightrope between the sides, but leaned in the direction of preserving existing societal norms (respect the flag, follow convention).

So where they're going are apples and oranges. But what they've been facing, and the pressures involved, have absolutely been apples and apples.

 

[Mccage]

I’m worried about some of the people on here that will get carpal tunnel syndrome.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I’m worried about some of the people on here that will get carpal tunnel syndrome.

I'm more worried about folks who think complex issues can be covered adequately with one-sentence responses.