Identifying Player Roles

[madtownvol]

Its not about singling her out, what has she done to warrant such loyalty and playing time? She was the 3rd overall prospect coming out and what has she done? I'm looking around the country and freshman as being incorporated in their teams plans and are helping them to victory. They are also being allowed to make mistakes and if they are pulled they are allowed to return into the game. If Burdick and Massengale are pulled they return at the next sub, other players don't have the same luxury and come tournament time the experience the freshmen will be getting will help us tremendously. You wont know what they can do if you don't play them. We know what Burdick and Massengale can do and if thats what she wants to ride with fine but as a fan base we can't get upset when players do not want to come here if they feel as freshman or if they play certain positions they are not coming because of the lack of development or loyalty to some. Players want to play and attend programs to play and not sit, especially if they are high recruits. Geno has the luxury of players transferring for every Top 40 prospect that leaves he rebuild with a Top 3. We get a top 10 lately (They are spose to be game changers) and they leave without a title or final 4 appearance.

What has Massengale done? She came in and took over as PG as a freshmen. Her development would have been better had a more seasoned player been in front of her and she could have grown into the role.

When players come to a program with quality players, they know that are not likely to get tons of minutes in their first year.

And it does not help recruiting if a player knows that they are likely to be displaced in their latter two years so a freshman can get development time.

 

[Amb3096]

What has Massengale done? She came in and took over as PG as a freshmen. Her development would have been better had a more seasoned player been in front of her and she could have grown into the role.

When players come to a program with quality players, they know that are not likely to get tons of minutes in their first year.

And it does not help recruiting if a player knows that they are likely to be displaced in their latter two years so a freshman can get development time.

I'm probably one of the only posters here who is pro-Ariel. I think her development has been fine. She's a great passer and she's improved her scoring proficiency. I don't think that she would have become a better player if she came off the bench her freshmen year, though I think she'd be a better player if she didn't miss half of last year with concussion.

The bolded part I don't agree with. The best players should play. Playing time should be survival of the fittest, and players, whether incoming or established, need to be pushed to improve. This isn't a union shop.

 

[golf437]

Good Win over Rutgers but I am getting frustrated because we have a Final Four Team (Talent Wise) but will probably be put out in the second round because of coaching/stubborness. For the life I me I can't see why Holly is so loyal to some (Burdick, Massengale, Graves) and not to others (Nared, Moore, Tucker). Based on the way the players have played as of late a lot of changes needs to be made and roles need to be given. At no time should Reynolds and Carter be in the backcourt together because neither wants to shoot. I also think Jasmine has been outplaying Graves as of late (I could do without the turnovers) but I feel as though she really wants it and should be rewarded, she isn't afraid to throw her body in there and attack the rim, nor is she afraid to take the shot (even if its a bad one). Moving forward players need to be told their roles and be made to stick to that, the only thing they can do outside of their role is rebound/get on the floor for the ball.

Roles are as such
Burdick should rebound only (only time she scores if she's wide open, she hasn't shown that she could be a consistent scorer so why does it seem like she is still trying to fill the stat sheet)? Also why is she playing so many minutes, this is her final year and she is taking away time from the younger players (Nared, Dunbar, Middleton, Tucker) that we could be developing.

Massengale shoot the ball (we saw her hit 5 3s in a row in the first half of a game this season and we need more of that, stop trying to drive to the basket, come off the screen and be our assassin, this is also her last year why are we devoting so much time to her when we could be developing others)

Moore Rebound, Block Shots, Run the floor. We really need her on the floor and for the life of me I can't see how she can't get on the floor? She is no worst that Stokes in UConn and although Stokes finds herself in Geno's dog house he knows he can't leave her there because he never knows when he'll need her.

Izzy Dominate, there aren't many ladies in the NCAA that can jump and play with her when she comes to play, she has to open her mouth and demand the ball. Our last Championship we had a Superstar (Parker) who knew when she could allow her supporting cast to do work but when it was time to take over, she took over.

The Beast Graves has lost some of her confidence imo, Her rookie year she was dominant could it be holly's short lease? IDK but we need her back to Freshman form which means she must also demand the ball and stop putting it on the floor on the offensive rebound. It needs to got straight back up.

Jasmine Jones She is the key imo to if we will be able to contend. She brings the energy and everything that Nicky Anosike brought us. I remember Anosike guarding PG in the open floor in her Junior and Senior year and Jasmine is a lot stronger and more athletic than Anosike was. She has stepped up offensively and she needs to be told to try to limit her turnovers.

Reynolds I want the Reynolds from the SEC tournament and the early portion of the NCAA tournament. In a stretch when we couldn't score, she took over (especially in the SC game). She has to be told to attack the rim and try to score, dish if the layup isn't available.

I would also make adjustments to my starting lineup

Starters/Bench
PG-Reynolds/Carter
SG-Middleton/Massengale
SF-Nared/Tucker/Dunbar
PF-Jones/Graves/Burdick
C-Harrison/Moore

Burdick should only see limited minutes unless there is foul trouble.

After reading we can be thankful that you are not the coach.

 

[armchair]

Pat was 0-3 in Final Fours for her last 3 seasons with arguably a more talented group of players. If she was the coach, would you be calling for her head also?

started under PS, and it was clear in her last several years that things were slipping pretty noticeably. Warlick has picked up the offensive ineptitude that is UT basketball--running offensive sets that are ill-suited to our players.

Start Nared? She's shot the ball terribly all year, but then, true, so has everybody else.

I thought our guard play would be better because we have some depth at the position, but it really isn't. Massengale has to play, as someone said above, because she is the only dependable outside shooter we have. She and Izzy are the only two players we have who can make shots somewhat consistently--and I do mean /somewhat./

Jones is getting better, but Warlick has got her outside with the ball, trying to play like Michael Jordan, and it is dumb. Jones is big and athletic, and doesn't mind shooting--but she also has a weak handle and is too methodical and commits too many turnovers--6 against Rutgers.

Why do people keep saying they want Graves to return to her freshman form? She plays now exactly how she played as a freshman. That was good then...because she was a freshman and of course everybody expects that a promising freshman will get better and better. But that doesn't really happen with this staff. Graves IS playing to her freshman form; she just happens to be a junior now who has yet to learn any even basic offensive moves.

We've got a lot of players with disparate skill sets. A good offensive coach or two could really do something with the group--meld the talent. But we do not have those coaches.

 

[madtownvol]

The bolded part I don't agree with. The best players should play. Playing time should be survival of the fittest, and players, whether incoming or established, need to be pushed to improve. This isn't a union shop.

That is not what I am saying, note the "development time." if you have a freshman who is ready to come in and be a difference maker, get them in the line-up. I am objecting to the idea of not playing upper class players, because "you know what you will get" and letting less ready freshman have time so they can help later in the season.

But again, it is all matter of situations as to when you give new recruits there minutes.

 

[Orange_Mamba]

If you think about we've never had a full roster since the 08' title run. For seasons we were without a pg, but we had everything else. Then we get a point guard and we lose ALL our centers to injuries. Okay so we find a center now we have no wing that can shoot from beyond the arc. Now fast forward to this season I feel we have all the pieces to make a title run. And we haven't had a bench this deep in years. If everyone gets healthy and plays for one another there's nobody that can stop them but themselves.

 

[gule]

Another quality post, imho, from Armchair... well done.

 

[Amb3096]

That is not what I am saying, note the "development time." if you have a freshman who is ready to come in and be a difference maker, get them in the line-up. I am objecting to the idea of not playing upper class players, because "you know what you will get" and letting less ready freshman have time so they can help later in the season.

But again, it is all matter of situations as to when you give new recruits there minutes.

If the freshman is just as good as the senior, then I'd give the freshman the nod in a heartbeat. Just because a player is a senior does not mean they should be the default option IF they are not producing.

In the Rutgers game, it was the right move to have Burdick in the game since a.) Nared looked lost when she did play and b.) Burdick was getting the job done on the defensive end, which is what they needed. But if there's a game where Burdick isn't scoring and she isn't defending, then Nared should be on the court.

 

[Pat4life]

Pat was 0-3 in Final Fours for her last 3 seasons with arguably a more talented group of players. If she was the coach, would you be calling for her head also?

Pat was also experiencing alzheimers symptoms too. Pat was not Pat and former players were saying this before the announcement or official diagnosis.

 

[Pat4life]

Nared did not look lost, I've watched the game four times. Burdick sucks and she should be getting mop up minutes. Ariel is average too.

 

[madtownvol]

Nared did not look lost, I've watched the game four times. Burdick sucks and she should be getting mop up minutes. Ariel is average too.

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Cute puppy dogs suck and Picasso was nothing more than a housepainter (and an average one at that):devilsmoke:

 

[Pat4life]

My opinion override all other opinions cos my sh** stank the worse. lol

 

[volnationnj]

My opinion override all other opinions cos my sh** stank the worse. lol

It never ceases to amaze me what people will post.
(I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here)

 

[teacherdean]

I am sorry but that just is not correct. CPS tried multiple offensive schemes--including working with Phil Jackson to learn about implementing the triangle offense and her long time relationship with Villanova coach Harry Perretta and incorporating his motion offense (which I hated by the way). There were other innovations as well. In fact, if you look toward the end of the CPS tenure, the LVs had some of their highest scoring seasons ever but they melted down against the top flight opponents. The team's ability to match up against the top 5 runs deeper than offensive schemes.

I don't know what was correct or incorrect, I guess you are talking about my assessment of Pat's offense. Thanks I was not aware that she went to other well known coaches in an effort to improve the offense. It just always seemed to be more of an inside game. It does appear to me that we are very staginate in what we are doing in the last few years on offense. I really believe we have outside shooters, however, we just do not have consistency. As I said I still would like to see some improvements in our offense, however it can be done.

What would you account for the melt down? Pat certainly did not seem to be in fear of competition. Could it have been because the competition became better and our players just threw in the towel in tough games? I can never see Pat allowing that to happen. Do we need to adopt UCONN's in your face attitude and style with a coach who believes he is the second coming with an ego bigger than Texas? I am not a big Geno fan but maybe his coaching style fits today's game. I am thinking in terms of final fours and national championships.

 

[orangeluvr]

Each player should be deft at shooting and defending. :yes:

 

[Sandvol]

I like a lot of what you are saying. If Burdick would just stay within her role she would be great-rebounds, defense, steals, junk points. She should not be featured offensively at all. Also, I want to see the freshmen (Middleton, Nared, and Dunbar) get minutes and be developed. They are good and they can shoot threes. It is almost as if Holly has made them unconfident about shooting threes.

 

[teacherdean]

I like a lot of what you are saying. If Burdick would just stay within her role she would be great-rebounds, defense, steals, junk points. She should not be featured offensively at all. Also, I want to see the freshmen (Middleton, Nared, and Dunbar) get minutes and be developed. They are good and they can shoot threes. It is almost as if Holly has made them unconfident about shooting threes.

I know I am going to get my head cut off by Holly supporters, but it seems as though she has little trust in freshmen as does some coaches of top programs. I watched Nared in two all star games and she played right on par with Ashia Wilson including one game in which I believe she won MVP. Middleton also did very well in a couple of all star games. Many of the players who played with Middleton and Nared are doing very well on the D1 level. Some of them are even starters and/or major contributors. I remember last year we played Russell sparingly. I remember she did real well in several all star games but seemed lost when she was on the floor her freshman year. I believe that coaches instill confidence in players and hopefully Holly is working on showing confidence in these two young ladies. I believe they can be game changers.

 

[madtownvol]

I don't know what was correct or incorrect, I guess you are talking about my assessment of Pat's offense. Thanks I was not aware that she went to other well known coaches in an effort to improve the offense. It just always seemed to be more of an inside game. It does appear to me that we are very staginate in what we are doing in the last few years on offense. I really believe we have outside shooters, however, we just do not have consistency. As I said I still would like to see some improvements in our offense, however it can be done.

What would you account for the melt down? Pat certainly did not seem to be in fear of competition. Could it have been because the competition became better and our players just threw in the towel in tough games? I can never see Pat allowing that to happen. Do we need to adopt UCONN's in your face attitude and style with a coach who believes he is the second coming with an ego bigger than Texas? I am not a big Geno fan but maybe his coaching style fits today's game. I am thinking in terms of final fours and national championships.

Yes, I was referring to the idea that CPS was content with a unidimensional offense. On the meltdowns, it is a bit of mystery. And it happened even under the CPS era and in the glory years with Candace parker. IN Parker's sophomore year, Duke blew the LVs off the court (at the T-B arena) and then the team got trounced by KY in their following game. And on the SummiTT, there was much lamenting about CPS's coaching inadequacy and all kinds of player disparagement (Nicki Anosike was the Cierra Burdick of the day). In the end, that team turned out okay .

 

[FrozenLVFan]

What has Massengale done? She came in and took over as PG as a freshmen. Her development would have been better had a more seasoned player been in front of her and she could have grown into the role.

We had a PG, whom Pat ran off by announcing that Ariel was going to be her starting PG while Ariel was still in HS. This uncharacteristic remark was one of the first signs that all was not right with CPS.

I'm probably one of the only posters here who is pro-Ariel. I think her development has been fine. She's a great passer and she's improved her scoring proficiency. I don't think that she would have become a better player if she came off the bench her freshmen year, though I think she'd be a better player if she didn't miss half of last year with concussion.

I think Ariel's offense improved significantly from her sophomore to junior year, and probably would have become even better had she not suffered that concussion. But her defense was terrible as a freshman, and it's terrible as a senior. And she hasn't even been challenged by a lot of great players yet this year.

 

[madtownvol]

We had a PG, whom Pat ran off by announcing that Ariel was going to be her starting PG while Ariel was still in HS. This uncharacteristic remark was one of the first signs that all was not right with CPS.

Okay, it is the internet and people can conjecture all they want but geez..

Lauren Avant struggled mightily her freshman year as the LVs took a PG by committee approach, mostly Stricklen and Kamiko Williams with Avant and Bass here and there. Lauren's problems trace to injuries which derailed a very promising career. But, she did not let those set backs stop her from achieving a high degree of personal success. Lauren's is a nice story.

For basketball star Lauren Avant, joy at the end of a painful journey - The Commercial Appeal

 

[stubbs9]

Good observations. For some reason I feel comfortable with Massengale on the floor because she's the only guard that can shoot consistently. Nared plays pretty good but is slow on defense. Carter has to improve offensively. She can't even finish a fast break. I like Middleton. She plays fearless.

 

[Volfan2012]

You must have someone on the floor at the two that can score at all times. This would be Massengale and Middleton. I think Middleton has lost some confidence because Holly is always jerking her out for Reynolds who is a minimal scoring threat. So I would use Reynolds and Carter at the point and not expect any scoring. I would use Massengale and Middleton at the two and expect a lot of scoring. I like Jones inside more she can't play the perimeter she turns it over to much. She has a great mid-range game play her at the four with Graves. Harrison is our five I guess we could back her up a little with Moore who seems to be working her way back to the end of the bench. Three Nared and Burdick neither has done much percentage wise they are all we have so they have to play.

 

[armchair]

You must have someone on the floor at the two that can score at all times. This would be Massengale and Middleton. I think Middleton has lost some confidence because Holly is always jerking her out for Reynolds who is a minimal scoring threat. So I would use Reynolds and Carter at the point and not expect any scoring. I would use Massengale and Middleton at the two and expect a lot of scoring. I like Jones inside more she can't play the perimeter she turns it over to much. She has a great mid-range game play her at the four with Graves. Harrison is our five I guess we could back her up a little with Moore who seems to be working her way back to the end of the bench. Three Nared and Burdick neither has done much percentage wise they are all we have so they have to play.

which of our guards should play the most because they are all so different. In fact, Reynolds can score and did score two big baskets down the stretch against Rutgers. She is more of a scorer than Carter. Our problem is that all four of them are point guards--there isn't a true shooting guard in the bunch. Massengale is the best outside shooter of the group, but she is more naturally a PG than a shooting guard. If the opponent has two good guards, then Massengale becomes a liability on defense.

I think Warlick should make Carter our starting PG. She played the position pretty well last year--but this year seems to be struggling to find her role. She is lots better than she has shown. Start her at PG and then spell her with Reynolds. If Carter isn't playing well, or Reynolds is, then give Reynolds more minutes. Do the same at the 2: Start Massengale and spell her with Middleton--though there is no way that Massengale is a true 2 as IMO she is not athletic enough for the position. But she's young.

Still I don't think we will ever play well offensively against a tough opponent with Warlick's offensive scheme. There is too much standing around, too much 1v1 basketball and far too little player movement, picks and passing. It might be a good offense if we had Deshields, Parker and Catchings on the floor--but we don't. We have NOBODY like that. That is why we should be playing a more conventional offense that emphasizes ball movement and getting open shots. There is a reason why our shooting percentage is often terrible, but Warlick has yet to put 2 and 2 together.

 

[stubbs9]

which of our guards should play the most because they are all so different. In fact, Reynolds can score and did score two big baskets down the stretch against Rutgers. She is more of a scorer than Carter. Our problem is that all four of them are point guards--there isn't a true shooting guard in the bunch. Massengale is the best outside shooter of the group, but she is more naturally a PG than a shooting guard. If the opponent has two good guards, then Massengale becomes a liability on defense.

I think Warlick should make Carter our starting PG. She played the position pretty well last year--but this year seems to be struggling to find her role. She is lots better than she has shown. Start her at PG and then spell her with Reynolds. If Carter isn't playing well, or Reynolds is, then give Reynolds more minutes. Do the same at the 2: Start Massengale and spell her with Middleton--though there is no way that Massengale is a true 2 as IMO she is not athletic enough for the position. But she's young.

Still I don't think we will ever play well offensively against a tough opponent with Warlick's offensive scheme. There is too much standing around, too much 1v1 basketball and far too little player movement, picks and passing. It might be a good offense if we had Deshields, Parker and Catchings on the floor--but we don't. We have NOBODY like that. That is why we should be playing a more conventional offense that emphasizes ball movement and getting open shots. There is a reason why our shooting percentage is often terrible, but Warlick has yet to put 2 and 2 together.

I agree we need a more conventional offense and that it would be better if we had a go to player. Our offense doesn't flow at all and we don't have the player that can create her own shot. I think it would be better to have carter at 1 and massengale at 2. Then sub out Reynolds and middleton.

 

[madtownvol]

which of our guards should play the most because they are all so different. In fact, Reynolds can score and did score two big baskets down the stretch against Rutgers. She is more of a scorer than Carter. Our problem is that all four of them are point guards--there isn't a true shooting guard in the bunch. Massengale is the best outside shooter of the group, but she is more naturally a PG than a shooting guard. If the opponent has two good guards, then Massengale becomes a liability on defense.

I think Warlick should make Carter our starting PG. She played the position pretty well last year--but this year seems to be struggling to find her role. She is lots better than she has shown. Start her at PG and then spell her with Reynolds. If Carter isn't playing well, or Reynolds is, then give Reynolds more minutes. Do the same at the 2: Start Massengale and spell her with Middleton--though there is no way that Massengale is a true 2 as IMO she is not athletic enough for the position. But she's young.

It is a plus that this team has flexibility with the PG slot. All three guards can handle that role, so foul trouble or one guard getting injured does not upset the apple cart. I do like Carter being on the floor if she can fulfill her potential as a lock down defender. That role is something this team needs and she seems like the best candidate of the three. The lack of outside is a looming problem because it allows opponents to pack the paint against Izzy and Bashaara and players driving the lane.

So, Massengale as an outside threat is important. Jordan can hit threes but she has not shown much consistency. It's still early in the season but her game does not seem to have improved that much from last year (That is not a dig, she was a strong freshman but I was hoping she would become more of a force this season).

And it would help if Middleton could get going sometime this season.