How We Got To Here: Christianity Version

[joevol320]

All I'm asking Christians to do is to reread the entire Bible and then ask yourself...do I really believe this happened? I was shocked at the violence and the obvious borrowing from other older mythologies...it really helped that at the same time I was studying Campbell and creative mythology.

what older mythologies did the bible steal from?

there is a great deal of evidence that supports the Bible from a historical standpoint.

the Bible is very accurate when it describes the spiritual position of man.

 

[joevol320]

:crazy:

that's it?

 

[ClearwaterVol]

in terms of right and wrong, we don't have free will.

why do 2 and 3 yr old kids say no to parents or disobey parents when told to do things? i would say a 100% of polled say they do NOT teach their kids to disobey, yet children are born with a rebellious heart. they don't knowing rebel but as the Bible says they are born sinners, born rebellious.

looking at society today, have we evolved morally good?

historically, societies' laws have been based on a biblical morality. one can nations and societies that have turned away from laws based on Biblical morals.

Way to ignore the history that existed before the bible.

 

[joevol320]

When does it get those rights?

conception?
first heartbeat?
brain waves?
when it can survive outside the womb?
birth?

it's obviously growing and it's obviously living so the it should be considered a living human.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

When does it get those rights?

conception?
first heartbeat?
brain waves?
when it can survive outside the womb?
birth?

I believe ar conception. Once mitosis and replication begins, it is a living thing. A person. The debate ensues when people try to determine at what point personhood occurs. That is purely subjective. There is little to debate about the fact that ar conception, a new life begins... a living thing is growing inside a host. Those on the left want the child to only have rights in some cases ar birth, others 3rd trimester etc. Most comseervatives believe rights begin at conception. The Bible states that God knit us in our mothers wombs, numbered the hairs on our heads, etc. I believe that regardless of a heart, or lungs, or even a brain...that at conception a child is given a soul. A soul that is timeless and eternal. My wife and i lost a child before birth, and almost lost my daughter. I believe firmly that i will meet my lost child in Heaven. That she is there with God at this very moment, and one day i will get to see her. There is nothing anyone could ever say that would change this belief.

 

[joevol320]

Way to ignore the history that existed before the bible.

i'm not necessarily talking about the Bible in it's current form. i'm talking about the biblical laws that God had ordained as society was growing.

 

[Roustabout]

All I'm asking Christians to do is to reread the entire Bible and then ask yourself...do I really believe this happened? I was shocked at the violence and the obvious borrowing from other older mythologies...it really helped that at the same time I was studying Campbell and creative mythology.

One, i don't think that is all you are doing.

I've read the entire bible and have studied it every day, in some capacity, for the past 10 years. In that time, i absolutely believe that a man named Jesus lived a sinless life, performed miracles, died in Jerusalem by crucifixion, and bodily rose from the dead. EVERYTHING else in the bible, including the OT, is interpreted in light of this.

Why would you be shocked at violence. What ontological grounding do you have to justify this?

If the Bible contains such difficulties, then why weren't they just edited out?

 

[Roustabout]

Way to ignore the history that existed before the bible.

Agreed. It's a bad argument that many of my fellow Christians make. Objective morality is the real issue.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

it's obviously growing and it's obviously living so the it should be considered a living human.

Welp, then we will never agree on the topic because, based upon that statement, you would disallow abortion in all cases. In fact, because, in many instances the "pill" has abortifacient capabilities, I would expect you to be anti birth control pills, as well.

First, I am very sorry to hear about your losses.

However, I would argue that most conservatives believe that life begins at implantation not conception. For conception begins roughly a week prior to implantation. In many instances, birth control pills act to prevent implantation. In as much as 5-10% of the time fertilized eggs are expelled from the body because, in addition to preventing pregnancy, birth control pills change the conditions of the uterine lining making it inhospitable to implantation.

So now we have another arbitrary, if not convenient line, that even most pro-lifers are willing cross. Now then, should we ban the pill?

Why are most pro-lifers willing to allow abortions in the case of rape? It seems disingenous to consider the woman's rights in the case of rape, but to ignore them in every other instance.

 

[Roustabout]

When does it get those rights?

conception?
first heartbeat?
brain waves?
when it can survive outside the womb?
birth?

biologically speaking, an embryo is a distinct human life. That's not opinion, but fact. From this point it is really a matter of opinion.

I don't think its a matter of when, but from where does any right come.

Today, we have knowledge that an embryo is a unique human life at its earliest stage of development. Not long ago, people did not have this knowledge.

 

[Roustabout]

Welp, then we will never agree on the topic because, based upon that statement, you would disallow abortion in all cases. In fact, because, in many instances the "pill" has abortifacient capabilities, I would expect you to be anti birth control pills, as well.

First, I am very sorry to hear about your losses.

However, I would argue that most conservatives believe that life begins at implantation not conception. For conception begins roughly a week prior to implantation. In many instances, birth control pills act to prevent implantation. In as much as 5-10% of the time fertilized eggs are expelled from the body because, in addition to preventing pregnancy, birth control pills change the conditions of the uterine lining making it inhospitable to implantation.

So now we have another arbitrary, if not convenient line, that even most pro-lifers are willing cross. Now then, should we ban the pill?

Why are most pro-lifers willing to allow abortions in the case of rape? It seems disingenous to consider the woman's rights in the case of rape, but to ignore them in every other instance.

The reason most allow it is because of moral delima.

 

[volprof]

One, i don't think that is all you are doing.

I've read the entire bible and have studied it every day, in some capacity, for the past 10 years. In that time, i absolutely believe that a man named Jesus lived a sinless life, performed miracles, died in Jerusalem by crucifixion, and bodily rose from the dead. EVERYTHING else in the bible, including the OT, is interpreted in light of this.

Why would you be shocked at violence. What ontological grounding do you have to justify this?

If the Bible contains such difficulties, then why weren't they just edited out?

Like a lot of skeptics, he probably has difficulty harmonizing the Great Big Ole' Fat Book of Radical Hebrew Ultranationalism (sometimes called the "Old Testament") with the Book of Hebrew Internationalism (sometimes called the "New Testament").

The discrepancies are like thinking a fascist and a communist can get along with one another. The only thing they agree on is the central authority of the state.

 

[volbeast33]

When does it get those rights?

conception?
first heartbeat?
brain waves?
when it can survive outside the womb?
birth?

I use to believe in abortion and came very close to being involved in one with a girl I use to see.... That view changed after seeing the doctor in philly that kept aborted babies in jars as trophies and seeing the piles of baby body parts that had been ripped apart.... It's disgusting that we have tricked ourselves into thinking that is ok.

 

[MercyPercy]

in terms of right and wrong, we don't have free will.

why do 2 and 3 yr old kids say no to parents or disobey parents when told to do things? i would say a 100% of polled say they do NOT teach their kids to disobey, yet children are born with a rebellious heart. they don't knowing rebel but as the Bible says they are born sinners, born rebellious.

looking at society today, have we evolved morally good?

historically, societies' laws have been based on a biblical morality. one can nations and societies that have turned away from laws based on Biblical morals.

Today I learned societies didn't exist before the bible.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

I think people can do what they want..the problem is that many want our laws to mimic their beliefs. You feel like you should be free to worship do you also believe a woman can do what she wants with her body?

All I'm asking Christians to do is to reread the entire Bible and then ask yourself...do I really believe this happened? I was shocked at the violence and the obvious borrowing from other older mythologies...it really helped that at the same time I was studying Campbell and creative mythology.

Surely you can see the hypocrisy of this thread. You, like many others, have a primary complaint against Christians because "they try to push their beliefs on others". And yet, through your own admission as stated above in your posts, that is exactly what you are doing.

You started a thread largely questioning the intelligence of those who choose to believe in Christ, and then suggest that (paraphrasing) "they read it one more time and surely they'll come to their senses and see it the same way I do".

Not really one of your better moments VolnJC.

 

[Roustabout]

Like a lot of skeptics, he probably has difficulty harmonizing the Great Big Ole' Fat Book of Radical Hebrew Ultranationalism (sometimes called the "Old Testament") with the Book of Hebrew Internationalism (sometimes called the "New Testament").

The discrepancies are like thinking a fascist and a communist can get along with one another. The only thing they agree on is the central authority of the state.

Why limit this to skeptics?

I don't think we are called to harmonize the two. The OT, for the most part, has an audience. Count how many times "Here ye o, Israel," occurs in the OT.

Good thing the OT actually foretold this. If it didn't, your complaint might hold some credibility.

 

[Roustabout]

Yep, saying Christians SHOULD NOT push their beliefs on others, is in fact, pushing your beliefs on others. Yayyyy, I won the interweb!!

 

[TheDeeble]

Why are most pro-lifers willing to allow abortions in the case of rape? It seems disingenous to consider the woman's rights in the case of rape, but to ignore them in every other instance.

I think it's a stopping point that's seen as progress. I don't think anyone believes all abortions will ever be outlawed. But if they can cut back or stop the recreational abortions that happen just because people were too lazy to put on a condom that would knock out a large portion of abortions.

Some people may be in favor of a complete abortion ban but they know if they go in saying rape abortions should be outlawed then just about anything else they say will get ignored. So instead they want to end abortions just before that point.

 

[Roustabout]

I use to believe in abortion and came very close to being involved in one with a girl I use to see.... That view changed after seeing the doctor in philly that kept aborted babies in jars as trophies and seeing the piles of baby body parts that had been ripped apart.... It's disgusting that we have tricked ourselves into thinking that is ok.

Sure, but a good portion of abortions occur long before limbs or any recognizable human features develop. It's a difficult subject. I'm as pro-life as they come, but we have to be honest in our dialogue and the differences in stages of development.

 

[VolnJC]

Surely you can see the hypocrisy of this thread. You, like many others, have a primary complaint against Christians because "they try to push their beliefs on others". And yet, through your own admission as stated above in your posts, that is exactly what you are doing.

You started a thread largely questioning the intelligence of those who choose to believe in Christ, and then suggest that (paraphrasing) "they read it one more time and surely they'll come to their senses and see it the same way I do".

Not really one of your better moments VolnJC.

I simply think that many Christians have never read the Bible all the way through..especially the Old Testament. The problem with most religions, is that they have been accepted too long without debate from fear of being labeled a nonbeliever.

 

[volprof]

Why limit this to skeptics?

I don't think we are called to harmonize the two. The OT, for the most part, has an audience. Count how many times "Here ye o, Israel," occurs in the OT.

Good thing the OT actually foretold this. If it didn't, your complaint might hold some credibility.

And no more than two minutes into the conversation between the fascist Hebrew ultranationalist and the communist Hebrew Internationalist, they're already duking it out over how the "Jews" and the "gays" have corrupted their otherwise utopian societies.

Trying to harmonize the two is like supporting the Beer Hall Putsch one day, only to spend the entirety of the next whistling the melody of "The Internationale."

 

[ClearwaterVol]

I think it's a stopping point that's seen as progress. I don't think anyone believes all abortions will ever be outlawed. But if they can cut back or stop the recreational abortions that happen just because people were too lazy to put on a condom that would knock out a large portion of abortions.

Some people may be in favor of a complete abortion ban but they know if they go in saying rape abortions should be outlawed then just about anything else they say will get ignored. So instead they want to end abortions just before that point.

It's tough to define that line, recreational abortions. It's probably easier to define a stage of development.

 

[volbeast33]

I simply think that many Christians have never read the Bible all the way through..especially the Old Testament. The problem with most religions, is that they have been accepted too long without debate from fear of being labeled a nonbeliever.

Then they are not christians

 

[volprof]

Yep, saying Christians SHOULD NOT push their beliefs on others, is in fact, pushing your beliefs on others. Yayyyy, I won the interweb!!

You won nothing but your own typed nonsense.

Keep your religious beliefs confined to your church and your household.

Otherwise, they have no place in our secular democracy, our Republic.

 

[southgatevol]

You won nothing but your own typed nonsense.

Keep your religious beliefs confined to your church and your household.

Otherwise, they have no place in our secular democracy, our Republic.

You would restrict freedom of speech?