How We Got To Here: Christianity Version

#27
#27
Septic said:
Well, you answered the question of whether the VolnJC in your user name is Jesus Christ or (definitely) not.

:popcorn:
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The irony is that I really like some of the teachings of Jesus..my fave book from the Gnostic gospels is Thomas...Jesus sounds Buddhist and I can relate.

The Gospel of Thomas Collection - Translations and Resources
113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
 
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#28
#28
Roustabout said:
Where is the harp and halo version in the NT?
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You're right. I was totally confusing that with popular cartoon visions of Heaven.

You are correct, that's not in the Bible. Although I do think the singing of hymns is.

Either way, I don't care enough anymore to even look it up, so your criticisms of my lack of knowledge on the matter are pretty much meaningless, although I do apologize for my erroneous initial comments. I've had about enough of "I'm going Heaven" while things here got to hell to last me a life time, so you'll have to forgive me if I confuse the cartoon and Biblical versions. They're essentially the same thing.

Sorry, I used to be understanding about these things, but I'm not anymore. Call me a bigot or whatever you want, but I'm no longer placing any confidence in anyone who votes according to how they think some sky god - of which they've never had any actual proof - thinks they should vote. Which is exactly what too many Americans do.

If you think you're going to Heaven, then I hope you get there. I am a firm believer in the betterment of humanity, and I think Heaven is a good step. But I just can't sink myself to that kind of intellectual dishonesty simply because of my emotions.
 
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#29
#29
joevol33 said:
Haha, I know. I just don't get why it bothers people. I like the op, and other posters who don't believe, but just never have understood why it bothers some people so bad that others believe. They have a right to feel that way, just as I have mine.
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It doesn't bother us that you believe that way. If all it was was a matter of you believing that way, we wouldn't care.

What bothers us is that your believing that way influences your votes, which in turn influences your elected candidates, which in turn influences local laws, which in turn influences state laws, which in turn influences national laws, although, admittedly, we've usually cut you off by the point it reaches the entire nation, thank god.

Not blaming you personally, but as a voter bloc, yes.
 
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#30
#30
BigOrangeTrain said:
You know what is ironic and hypocritical at the same time about some of those who dont believe? Those same people get angry when everyone cannot have their autonomy to do what they want. Like marry who they want, use whatever drug or whatever. But when it comes to believing in God? Well thats stupid and anyone who believes that way should not.
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I know you think you just made the most genius comment on Earth since at least the 1950s, but you basically did nothing but equate two semi-illegal things (gay marriage is technically legal but really not and legalized drugs are localized) with something that is completely legal.

Maybe what's really stupid is some people's inability to understand freedom.
 
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#31
#31
volbeast33 said:
That does not just involve religion.... Every single American wants laws based on what they believe to be right or wrong including yourself.
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You are correct. Most Americans do indeed want laws based upon what they believe to be right or wrong.

The difference is that voters who vote upon religious principles do so with no rational concept of a republic, of how it functions or works. Other idealists vote for equally illusionary visions.

Some Americans, as hard as is to believe, however, do indeed vote along rational principles. These are the select few, who steward our democracy. And these we call "Gods," because, as far as we're concerned, they are our shepherds, our gods. They are the only safe fails we possess against not only lunacy but the complete loss of our Republic.
 
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#32
#32
volprof said:
You are correct. Most Americans do indeed want laws based upon what they believe to be right or wrong.

The difference is that voters who vote upon religious principles do so with no rational concept of a republic, of how it functions or works. Other idealists vote for equally illusionary visions.

Some Americans, as hard as is to believe, however, do indeed vote along rational principles. These are the select few, who steward our democracy. And these we call "Gods," because, as far as we're concerned, they are our shepherds, our gods. They are the only safe fails we possess against not only lunacy but the complete loss of our Republic.
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Your narcissism and ego are played out. Maybe I should use some of your schoolyard rhetoric, just take your butt lashing and go home. Pandering to septic and some others will only further your ignorance.
 
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#33
#33
VolnJC said:
I said nothing demeaning in my post other than I don't understand how people still believe. People sing of a peaceful loving God...apparently haven't read the Old Testament...dude was pretty vengeful in the old days before changing over in the NT...and also the church has changed with the falling numbers...you don't hear the fire and brimstone preachers anymore..."you are going to Hell if you don't believe"...the last time we visited they were giving out gift cards to whoever had the best attendance :)

Even with the World Wars...God is still the all time leader in kills
Dwindling In Unbelief: How many has God killed? Complete list and estimated total (Including Apocryphal killings)
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I wasn't regerring to you..... Just in general
 
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#34
#34
VolnJC said:
I'm amazed at how popular Christianity still is in this country. Of course you have to look at Constantine, who as emperor, definitely had a major role as most people around the world had no clue who Jesus was. Then other governments saw religion as a way to control the masses. We also are to blame as we are sure our parents and grandparents would not tell us something that was incorrect. But cmon, it's been 2,000 years, isn't it time we moved on?

slide_42.jpg
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history: a version from the ignorant.

how dumb
 
#35
#35
volprof said:
Well, the "Harp and Halo" version in the New Testament, where everyone does nothing but sing hymns all eternal day, certainly is tiring. The Islamic terrorists definitely have that one beat with their 72 virgins, although I'd much prefer 72 pornstars, but that's beside the point.

But I don't think most Christians really think Heaven is going to be like that. I think they believe it is going to be just a permanent extenuation of their earthly lives, despite what the Bible says. The only difference is that they'll no longer experience bad emotions or suffering. That's certainly how I always thought about it, when I was a Christian. Plus, most people aren't capable of processing things as abstract as "Heaven" and "eternal life," so it's only natural they are incapable of envisioning these as anything but like the only life they have known and experienced thus far - earthly life (minus all the bad things).
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more stupidy from the ignorant and uninformed.
 
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#36
#36
volprof said:
You are correct. Most Americans do indeed want laws based upon what they believe to be right or wrong.

The difference is that voters who vote upon religious principles do so with no rational concept of a republic, of how it functions or works. Other idealists vote for equally illusionary visions.

Some Americans, as hard as is to believe, however, do indeed vote along rational principles. These are the select few, who steward our democracy. And these we call "Gods," because, as far as we're concerned, they are our shepherds, our gods. They are the only safe fails we possess against not only lunacy but the complete loss of our Republic.
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He was talking about morality. So, rationally tell us the objective basis of atheistic morality, or go ahead and admit that you believe morality to be subjective, and put your hypocrisy on display for everyone.

I mean... Rationally speaking and all.
 
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#37
#37
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#39
#39
Is eternal suffering preferable to eternal bliss (a philosophical question)? Or an end of being, nothingness, nirvanna? If given the choice, I'd take bliss.

Are people today the same ethically as they were 2-3000 years ago? If everyone was like the VVitch, murder mom, screw dad, kill your siblings, all before breakfast at that time, would you feel sorry for them?

Or to put it another way, if a pillar of flame had descended from the heavens and consumed Hitler, would you really see God as evil?

Of course, when Homer in the Iliad describes Zeus et al as participating in the battle it's poetic, but not the Bible b/c that's all literal.

A textual approach to the Bible really yields some interesting results if you read it as an adult. There are lots of quirks, like confusion in the story of David and Goliath, as to whether David or Elhanan killed Goliath or why did the great king of the jews fight for the Phillistines for a good while. Trying to figure out what these might mean is kind of a fun project.

Of course, the point of religion is ethics, so I'm not entirely sure you need to believe in God to be good. It's up to the individual.
 
#41
#41
jvol1 said:
Is eternal suffering preferable to eternal bliss (a philosophical question)? Or an end of being, nothingness, nirvanna? If given the choice, I'd take bliss.

Are people today the same ethically as they were 2-3000 years ago? If everyone was like the VVitch, murder mom, screw dad, kill your siblings, all before breakfast at that time, would you feel sorry for them?

Or to put it another way, if a pillar of flame had descended from the heavens and consumed Hitler, would you really see God as evil?

Of course, when Homer in the Iliad describes Zeus et al as participating in the battle it's poetic, but not the Bible b/c that's all literal.

A textual approach to the Bible really yields some interesting results if you read it as an adult. There are lots of quirks, like confusion in the story of David and Goliath, as to whether David or Elhanan killed Goliath or why did the great king of the jews fight for the Phillistines for a good while. Trying to figure out what these might mean is kind of a fun project.

Of course, the point of religion is ethics, so I'm not entirely sure you need to believe in God to be good. It's up to the individual.
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then how would you define good? if there is no God or the Bible (who set the laws of what is good and bad) then we couldn't never question a dictator or murderer. Hitler would have been justified by society for doing what he did.
 
#42
#42
joevol320 said:
then how would you define good? if there is no God or the Bible (who set the laws of what is good and bad) then we couldn't never question a dictator or murderer. Hitler would have been justified by society for doing what he did.
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Is it possible that morality is simply an evolutionary trait that was developed in order to facilitate harmony and ultimately the continued propagation of our species?

Is free will possible with a god based moral code? Are those two things inherently at odds?
 
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#43
#43
Septic said:
Is it possible that morality is simply an evolutionary trait that was developed in order to facilitate harmony and ultimately the continued propagation of our species?

Is free will possible with a god based moral code? Are those two things inherently at odds?
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in terms of right and wrong, we don't have free will.

why do 2 and 3 yr old kids say no to parents or disobey parents when told to do things? i would say a 100% of polled say they do NOT teach their kids to disobey, yet children are born with a rebellious heart. they don't knowing rebel but as the Bible says they are born sinners, born rebellious.

looking at society today, have we evolved morally good?

historically, societies' laws have been based on a biblical morality. one can nations and societies that have turned away from laws based on Biblical morals.
 
#44
#44
Religious morality has served its purpose so far, too keep us from wiping out our own species. We have come close but religion has throttled the desire just enough to make it to this point. Not over yet.
 
#45
#45
VolnJC said:
I think people can do what they want..the problem is that many want our laws to mimic their beliefs. You feel like you should be free to worship do you also believe a woman can do what she wants with her body?
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no stealing, no murder. No bearing false witness. Justice. recompense. Honor. Do unto others.

Abortion is a red herring.
 
#46
#46
Septic said:
Is it possible that morality is simply an evolutionary trait that was developed in order to facilitate harmony and ultimately the continued propagation of our species?

Is free will possible with a god based moral code? Are those two things inherently at odds?
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Neuroscientists discovered over 20 years ago that there was a "free will section of the brain"

Free will could all be an illusion, scientists suggest after study shows choice may just be brain tricking itself | Science | News | The Independent
 
#47
#47
Septic said:
Is it possible that morality is simply an evolutionary trait that was developed in order to facilitate harmony and ultimately the continued propagation of our species?

Is free will possible with a god based moral code? Are those two things inherently at odds?
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yes, its possible, but that only answers an epistemological question, not the ontological one.
Free will is ONLY possible with a theistic worldview. Otherwise, we are all simply dancing to our DNA.
 
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#48
#48
All I'm asking Christians to do is to reread the entire Bible and then ask yourself...do I really believe this happened? I was shocked at the violence and the obvious borrowing from other older mythologies...it really helped that at the same time I was studying Campbell and creative mythology.
 
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#49
#49
marcusluvsvols said:
She can do whatever she wants with her body. Legalize prostitution for all i care.

Now the baby in her belly? She has no right to kill it. It should have the same rights she does. JMO of course.
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When does it get those rights?

conception?
first heartbeat?
brain waves?
when it can survive outside the womb?
birth?
 
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#50
#50
joevol320 said:
in terms of right and wrong, we don't have free will.

why do 2 and 3 yr old kids say no to parents or disobey parents when told to do things? i would say a 100% of polled say they do NOT teach their kids to disobey, yet children are born with a rebellious heart. they don't knowing rebel but as the Bible says they are born sinners, born rebellious.

looking at society today, have we evolved morally good?

historically, societies' laws have been based on a biblical morality. one can nations and societies that have turned away from laws based on Biblical morals.
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:crazy:
 
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