Coach Martin and recruiting

#176
#176
Spartacavolus said:
If you remember poor offensive games and where d was affected as well, we walked it up, ran a lot of motion and took a lot of late and bad shots with no offensive flow. The offense zapped our players instincts at times and we wouldve been nit bound had he not tweaked it.Jrich got 2 shots off in 2-3 early losses. In our late season streak, he avgd close to 10 shots. People will argue it's the same offense but it's not. Not to the eye and not on the stat sheet. We started as a grind it out team when many thought we had horses to run and attack. Grinding didn't work. Attacking with 20 seconds on shot clock did.
We finally did, started scoring close to 80 and blew everybody out.
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I agree the players did attack earlier but it was the same sets and looks
 
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#177
#177
GuRu said:
I agree the players did attack earlier but it was the same sets and looks
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We ran a lot more high pick later and took more rebounds and attacked the rim or hit Stokes more before the d was set. We also faced him up after he spent the first part of the year almost 100% with his back to the basket. We changed multiple things and oftentimes scored without setting up. Just dribble, feed, and cut or spotup. That was our best offense.
 
#178
#178
Spartacavolus said:
We ran a lot more high pick later and took more rebounds and attacked the rim or hit Stokes more before the d was set. We also faced him up after he spent the first part of the year almost 100% with his back to the basket. We changed multiple things and oftentimes scored without setting up. Just dribble, feed, and cut or spotup. That was our best offense.
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Rebounding isn't changing the offense. They did improve in that area. They always ran the pick and roll on the wing. Most of the time stokes got the ball facing the basket was in one of the sets they ran all year. He was supposed to make another pass and then the guard hit maymon posting up. Teams started taking away that pass so stokes went to work.

They did play more free and did a lot better job of attacking and rebounding but it was still the same sets. I Think they just ran it better and made plays when it broke down.
 
#179
#179
VolArmy74 said:
Ramar Smith was also a great defender like Josh, as a freshman and sophomore. I've laid it out as plain as I can and the facts back it up. If you want to be a program that competes for championships, you have to sign top 20 recruiting classes.

The goal here should be to compete for championships.

Florida had 2 NIT years in the last 17 years, they aren't the best example you could have thrown out.
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How many top 20 classes has Wichita State had? VCU? butler? Wisconsin?
 
#182
#182
GuRu said:
Martin ran the same offense against Michigan the other night as he did game one of the year. I think I saw one or two new sets against Michigan that I hadn't seen them run before.

The reason for the run was they were more intense on defense and played as a team. Richardson and Barton making shots were huge down the stretch.

You do need some catch and shoot players to run the motion offense well and I think that's what we are missing. If we had a loften ( I know that's asking a lot) we would still be playing and might win it all.
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Bring Back Lofton?
 
#184
#184
volbeast33 said:
same thing is said about Boise state with football recruiting....using the very few examples of schools that have done it without top notch recruiting does not make it any less important.
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Wisconsin has been consistently good, very good actually, this wasn't a one time deal for them.

There are examples of coaches who recruit well and don't win, and examples of coaches who recruit decently, but win. Works both ways.

I'm not saying Martin's guaranteed to win with less talent, but shouldn't he be given the chance to prove otherwise before declaring he can't? Also, I think his recruiting very well could improve if he was to stay.
 
#185
#185
bleedingTNorange said:
Wisconsin has been consistently good, very good actually, this wasn't a one time deal for them.

There are examples of coaches who recruit well and don't win, and examples of coaches who recruit decently, but win. Works both ways.

I'm not saying Martin's guaranteed to win with less talent, but shouldn't he be given the chance to prove otherwise before declaring he can't? Also, I think his recruiting very well could improve if he was to stay.
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how is he not given the chance?
 
#187
#187
Uh...because Martin hasn't "gotten us there", maybe? A sweet 16 "run" against umass and mercer hardly mean he has arrived as a coach. 3 underachieving seasons and next year the program falls off a cliff.

Let's stop comparing Martin to Cal, please.

Sudden Impact said:
Yes he did but it took them, a year, a season, and several bad loses to get the talent to the point he got them there.

Same can easily be said about Martin but for some strange reason it isn't.

OBTW, great post OP
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#188
#188
Maybe, but Wichita, Butler, VCU and Wisconsin are examples of GREAT coaches.

Bo Ryan - 383 game winner before he got to Wisconsin. Four Division 3 National Championships in nine years. Bo Ryan - 321-120 record with 13 straight NCAA appearances, five Sweet 16s, an Elite 8 and Final 4 in 13 seasons at Wisconsin. Ryan is 704-223 (.759) overall.

Gregg Marshall - 194-70 with seven NCAA appearances BEFORE he got to Wichita. Marshall is 368-154 (.705) overall.

Brad Stevens 166-49 (.772) with five NCAA appearances and two NCAA finals in six seasons at Butler. So good he got the call to the Celtics after just six seasons as a college coach.

Shaka Smart - 137-46 (.749) in five seasons at VCU with four NCAAs and one Final Four.

Cuonzo Martin 124-82 (.602) with one NCAA (a Sweet 16) in six seasons. See the difference?

Great coaches can take find 3 stars which fit their system had have great success. But, you have to be a great coach to pull that off.

bleedingTNorange said:
Wisconsin has been consistently good, very good actually, this wasn't a one time deal for them.

There are examples of coaches who recruit well and don't win, and examples of coaches who recruit decently, but win. Works both ways.

I'm not saying Martin's guaranteed to win with less talent, but shouldn't he be given the chance to prove otherwise before declaring he can't? Also, I think his recruiting very well could improve if he was to stay.
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#189
#189
germanicus said:
Maybe, but Wichita, Butler, VCU and Wisconsin are examples of GREAT coaches.

Bo Ryan - 383 game winner before he got to Wisconsin. Four Division 3 National Championships in nine years. Bo Ryan - 321-120 record with 13 straight NCAA appearances, five Sweet 16s, an Elite 8 and Final 4 in 13 seasons at Wisconsin. Ryan is 704-223 (.759) overall.

Gregg Marshall - 194-70 with seven NCAA appearances BEFORE he got to Wichita. Marshall is 368-154 (.705) overall.

Brad Stevens 166-49 (.772) with five NCAA appearances and two NCAA finals in six seasons at Butler. So good he got the call to the Celtics after just six seasons as a college coach.

Shaka Smart - 137-46 (.749) in five seasons at VCU with four NCAAs and one Final Four.

Cuonzo Martin 124-82 (.602) with one NCAA (a Sweet 16) in six seasons. See the difference?

Great coaches can take find 3 stars which fit their system had have great success. But, you have to be a great coach to pull that off.
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Agree, but Martin has improved every year he's been here, this year making it to the sweet 16. Seems like he's trending upwards, learning from his mistakes, and becoming a pretty good coach. I mean, he's got the best available job currently calling his number...
 
#190
#190
bleedingTNorange said:
Oh ok, so he made a Sweet 16, so you admit his method works?
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no bc everyone saw this yr coming halfway through his first yr......its why everybody was so stressed out when we were struggling....if he does it next yr and shows consistency then i will believe in his process.
 
#191
#191
bleedingTNorange said:
Agree, but Martin has improved every year he's been here, this year making it to the sweet 16. Seems like he's trending upwards, learning from his mistakes, and becoming a pretty good coach. I mean, he's got the best available job currently calling his number...
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And CCM may just parlay that into a move, which is genius for him and his agent if he pulls it off, especially a move to Marquette. Just like he was Missouri State, CCM is looking at a significant re-build in Year 4 of his program. Year 4 should be your best year as a coach taking over a program. That's when the roster is full of your guys. You shouldn't be taking a step back.

CCM got out of Springfield, MO ahead of the crash year at Missouri State. He may pull that off again. Congratulations to him if he does.
 
#192
#192
volbeast33 said:
no bc everyone saw this yr coming halfway through his first yr......its why everybody was so stressed out when we were struggling....if he does it next yr and shows consistency then i will believe in his process.
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Exactly what I originally said, and you questioned...

shouldn't he be given the chance to prove otherwise before declaring he can't?
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#193
#193
germanicus said:
And CCM may just parlay that into a move, which is genius for him and his agent if he pulls it off, especially a move to Marquette. Just like he was Missouri State, CCM is looking at a significant re-build in Year 4 of his program. Year 4 should be your best year as a coach taking over a program. That's when the roster is full of your guys. You shouldn't be taking a step back.
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Stokes returns and he lands Rhett and it damn well could be his best year.
 
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#194
#194
germanicus said:
And CCM may just parlay that into a move, which is genius for him and his agent if he pulls it off, especially a move to Marquette. Just like he was Missouri State, CCM is looking at a significant re-build in Year 4 of his program. Year 4 should be your best year as a coach taking over a program. That's when the roster is full of your guys. You shouldn't be taking a step back.

CCM got out of Springfield, MO ahead of the crash year at Missouri State. He may pull that off again. Congratulations to him if he does.
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Martin had Richardson recruited to Missouri State. Think J-Rich would've done OK in the MVC?
 
#195
#195
germanicus said:
And CCM may just parlay that into a move, which is genius for him and his agent if he pulls it off, especially a move to Marquette. Just like he was Missouri State, CCM is looking at a significant re-build in Year 4 of his program. Year 4 should be your best year as a coach taking over a program. That's when the roster is full of your guys. You shouldn't be taking a step back.

CCM got out of Springfield, MO ahead of the crash year at Missouri State. He may pull that off again. Congratulations to him if he does.
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If CCM had stayed at MO State, there wouldn't have been a drop off and we would've made the Dance that year. He took Richardson and Washpun with him to Knoxville and left Bears with nothing heading into the next year. Of the kids recruited after CCM left, none are still in the program.
 
#196
#196
bleedingTNorange said:
How many top 20 classes has Wichita State had? VCU? butler? Wisconsin?
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0 = number of teams that won the title without a top 20 recruiting class in the last 20+ years.

Around 80% of Final Four participants in the same span landed top 20 classes.

As I pointed out, there are a few teams that slip into the final 4 without top recruiting. But the top recruiting schools are consistently much much better in the regular season and the tournament.
 
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#197
#197
MSUDuo said:
If CCM had stayed at MO State, there wouldn't have been a drop off and we would've made the Dance that year. He took Richardson and Washpun with him to Knoxville and left Bears with nothing heading into the next year. Of the kids recruited after CCM left, none are still in the program.
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Except that 4 of the top 5 players on that team were seniors who were responsible for about 70% of the teams stats.

There was going to be a major fall of the next season regardless, and there was. They won 11 games with what Martin had put in place there in three years. Wes Washpun and Josh as freshmen weren't going to make that team win 16 more games.
 
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#198
#198
VolArmy74 said:
Except that 4 of the top 5 players on that team were seniors who were responsible for about 70% of the teams stats.

There was going to be a major fall of the next season regardless, and there was. They won 11 games with what Martin had put in place there in three years. Wes Washpun and Josh as freshmen weren't going to make that team win 16 more games.
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You've got the years mixed up. We only won 11 games last year, which was Lusk's second year. The year after Zo left we still went just over .500 but had the MVC POY back and yes, Richardson, and the others he had signed, would've been the difference had he stayed. Big difference between a first year coach and a 4th year coach.

But I digress, I'd get the hell out of here too.
 
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#200
#200
VolArmy74 said:
0 = number of teams that won the title without a top 20 recruiting class in the last 20+ years.

Around 80% of Final Four participants in the same span landed top 20 classes.

As I pointed out, there are a few teams that slip into the final 4 without top recruiting. But the top recruiting schools are consistently much much better in the regular season and the tournament.
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0=number of championships Tennessee has


If you're expecting a coach to come in and win a national championship, you may wanna get your head checked. Making the NCAAT, an occasional run is a fair expectations, national championship is not.
 
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