Year Two: win a bowl game or go sit in the hot seat

[ajvol01]

Funny how those coincided with Fulmer being elevated to #2, as I said.

Funny how you also said Fulmer did not inherit a top 10 program.

I don't have anything but good feelings toward Phil - you've twisted my comments into "hate" that isn't there.

I simply said Phil did not have to rebuild the program when he took the reigns in 93.

 

[BigTCountry]

I still find it really interesting that people call Mizzou a probable win on here. Thats almost as ridiculous as saying we will have anything better than a 6-6 record. Im not saying its impossible but they stomped us last year and was very successful and had a great record. I suppose everyone wants to judge them by their player losses and upcoming recruits. Well, I believe that those are not very solid leads to make predictions like probable win. Its alot easier to replace players when your team has a high morale and is coming off a winning season. Their not having to tunrn their team into winners they already are. They just have to bring in a few players that will buy into a very good program that will play their butts off.

Lets just say Mizzou brings in recruits only half as good as the guys their replacing. Well, we still have to have successful play to points on the board. Last year, very seldom did we show it.

Im looking forward to this season tho. I think it is possible but Im not one to jump to points that dont make much sense. I will just excitedly watch the games and see what happens

 

[matts42012]

You are draY to think that just after two years he will be on the hot seat much less fire OC/DC. This ain't Dooley, it's pretty obvious. His mixture of recruiting and winning games already (SC) prove that.

 

[sjt18]

With all due respect, then how did you get last years recruits?

Jones did a GREAT... not good... GREAT job of selling a dream. You can do that after your first season. You can say "I have a great staff and with a little time you'll see us start to rise toward the top. You can sell guys that better days are around the corner so they better get in on the ground level. He can even sell them on early PT.

If he has another season this season as bad as '13... then that dream becomes far more difficult if not impossible to sell. You just won't have enough of those high caliber recruits that he NEEDS to pull the program up willing to buy it. Not only will there be questions about the direction of the program, there will be a crowded field for early playing time.

Last year Jones convinced guys that UT was down but headed up. How does he do that unless there is some, even small, indication ON THE FIELD that he's telling the truth about the direction of his program?

 

[sjt18]

No one was calling for Dooley's head after year one.

No one is calling for Jones' head now.

No one was setting high expectations for Dooley in 2011. There was hope because of Bray and the receivers but we knew we would be young. Dooley even had a majority in his corner after the UK game.

But he was on a "hot seat" and deserved to be there. He needed a 8-10 win season in year 3... but instead laid a huge egg.

If Jones has two 7+ loss seasons in his first two with UT then he deserves to be on a hot seat too. As has been stated repeatedly, coaches that are going to succeed almost always show it in W/L within the first two years. Usually year 1.

That is when the problems began. The expectations were higher in 2012 when the talent matured and a schedule that had basically eight wins baked into it. Butch's seat will not be lukewarm if he doesn't win a bowl game. It would be good for him and the young team to go to a bowl game in order to get the extra practice and experience.

If he does not win 6 games in the regular season this year he can and SHOULD be on a hot seat. He should need significant progress in year 3 to save his job.

 

[sjt18]

I truly feel sorry for some of you guys.. not going to name people but you know who you are.. you have such a dim and pessimistic view about everything that it truly makes me feel sorry for you. ...

I can only guess that you are talking about those who say that expect 6 wins is too "optimistic and bright"... and that wallowing in failure is good enough.

 

[Jackcrevol]

no. wrong.

we have to pay to stay competitive. the rest is up to butch.

i think were a top tier qb away from competing is a year or two. but we cannot go another cycle without an impact qb.

 

[sjt18]

That's doubtful, UT could go 4-8 this year, and Butch isn't going anywhere. But, if he does go 4-8, year three will be huge for him.

So what you are saying is if he goes 4-8 that he will be on a hot seat going into '15, right? Other than you missing it by a loss (5-7)... that's all I have been saying.

 

[sjt18]

I still find it really interesting that people call Mizzou a probable win on here. Thats almost as ridiculous as saying we will have anything better than a 6-6 record. Im not saying its impossible but they stomped us last year and was very successful and had a great record.

Right and they return all of their best players, right? :no:

I suppose everyone wants to judge them by their player losses and upcoming recruits. Well, I believe that those are not very solid leads to make predictions like probable win. Its alot easier to replace players when your team has a high morale and is coming off a winning season. Their not having to tunrn their team into winners they already are. They just have to bring in a few players that will buy into a very good program that will play their butts off.

This is about as ridiculous as the excuse making can get. UT and Mizzou both replace players from last year's team. Last year's game was probably Worley's injury or more seasoning for Dobbs away from being a much closer game. UT has better players replacing their departing players.

THE ONLY remaining factor that can swing the game is coaching. IF Jones is the right coach then he'll at least match Pinkel this year and get the win. If he's not... then he may never. Mizzou's recruiting does appear to be ticking in up ever so slightly.

Lets just say Mizzou brings in recruits only half as good as the guys their replacing. Well, we still have to have successful play to points on the board. Last year, very seldom did we show it.

Coaches are hired to install systems and develop players to execute those systems. You have just made a VERY good case for pointing to the coaching staff if UT doesn't win this year.

Im looking forward to this season tho. I think it is possible but Im not one to jump to points that dont make much sense. I will just excitedly watch the games and see what happens

You ARE jumping to points that don't make sense regarding a team that just lost about 14 starters without having equal players to replace them. The only team you seem to be careful not to set expectations very high for is UT.

 

[sjt18]

This is horse****e.

You can actually make a lot of sense, sjt, then you throw it in the garbage with an irrational hatred of Fulmer.

I don't hate Fulmer. He had some GREAT YEARS. However he rode the program down and mostly because of pride and blindness to his own weaknesses. He failed to surround himself with great people and thought he could make them good enough if he liked and protected them. A good leader would have had enough of Randy Sanders by about '01. Fulmer's job had to be threatened before he finally cut the guy loose.

You are in denial about the guy being largely responsible for the recent decline of UT football. Sorry if you think honesty and objectivity about Fulmer are equivalent to hatred... they aren't.

Recruiting is a 1-3 year cycle with players. Most of the time recruiting for the 09 class was under Fulmer.

I don't hate Fulmer but his performance drifted down and then fell sharply. He could have saved himself and all of this pain simply by holding players and coaches accountable for effort, behavior, and performance. But possibly his greatest strength as a leader (loyalty to individuals) blinded him to his obligation to be loyal to something larger and more important.

An irrational hatred that not even SGM tries to defend anymore because it just can't be defended except by the clinically insane. It's been six damn years!

The 09 class wasn't. Fulmer drove the program into the ditch. Kiffin and Dooley failed to pull it out... but they didn't put it there.

Tajh Boyd, Bryce Petty, a Top Ten class that actually addressed needs.

I am unsure how or why Kiffin passed on those guys. But here is a list of guys he decided to keep who were recruited by Fulmer- Askew, Edwards, Green, King, Mitchell-Thornton, Oku, Oliver, Revis, Rogers, Schofield, Sykes, T Williams. How many of those guys besides Rogers made a significant contribution?

He cut some guys loose like Thigpen and Aubrey Phillips. Phillips IIRC never even made it to campus before busting at FSU.

GTFO. The Kiffin class is universally regarded as the biggest bust in NCAA history. He is an EPIC FAIL and you seem committed and intent on making sure you do a swan dive into the Kiffin cesspool.

I despise Kiffin and have very, very little regard for him. I didn't trust or like him when he was coach. But the 09 class was primarily the product of Fulmer's decline and fall. Even the vast majority of highly rated players Fulmer had committed or was in on were busts wherever they ended up playing.

 

[BigTCountry]

Right and they return all of their best players, right? :no:

This is about as ridiculous as the excuse making can get. UT and Mizzou both replace players from last year's team. Last year's game was probably Worley's injury or more seasoning for Dobbs away from being a much closer game. UT has better players replacing their departing players.

THE ONLY remaining factor that can swing the game is coaching. IF Jones is the right coach then he'll at least match Pinkel this year and get the win. If he's not... then he may never. Mizzou's recruiting does appear to be ticking in up ever so slightly.

Coaches are hired to install systems and develop players to execute those systems. You have just made a VERY good case for pointing to the coaching staff if UT doesn't win this year.


You ARE jumping to points that don't make sense regarding a team that just lost about 14 starters without having equal players to replace them. The only team you seem to be careful not to set expectations very high for is UT.

Yeah were replacing players and so are they.... but wait a second we are replacing players on a very below average tennessee team. They are replacing players are a very good Mizzou team. Im not trying to step on the toes of vol fans in general, im trying to step on the toes of the people who truly have pure confidence that we should win that game. It hardly has anything to do with the opponent, I've played football above the highschool level, does that prove anything no not really, but I've definitely played enough to know its not always the people across the line of scrimmage that lose the game for you. Would you expect to win if we come out and lose to Utah St? Unless your psychic I dont think thats a promised win either from the football Gods.


My point is as a former athlete I have enough sense to think about yourself and what needs improvement more than the opponent. Our list is long, need I go futher. Way below average QB play, we have babies playing on the Oline and Dline. Our defense played decent last year, but also was completely demolished in some games including Mizzou and Oregon so on so on so on. Lets think about those two areas listed above for a second QB and Oline what games do you think we can win if their not mature enough to play in the SEC and/or underperform? Do you in fact see into the future :crazy: to know that their going to meet their expectations or surpass them?

and if its our recruits thats supposed to win these games. IDK them I havent seen them play, all ive heard is the media hype the big names up I will wait til Saturdays in the fall to find out what I know they can do. Im glad the star system for recruits makes us that much better.

With all that said, I want them to prove me wrong, and I have faith that they will. when Idk? but until then Im not going to go around saying we can beat teams that recently kicked out tails. I will just enjoy it when it happens.

 

[BigTCountry]

I will give it up though SJT from a spectators view. I MAYBE can make sense of where your coming from. It just hard for me to think of it the way you are being active in sports just a couple years ago. If you go around thinking you can beat some team because they have lost talent before the game happens probably not the best game prep mentality.

 

[Sudden Impact]

Sometimes, teams win games because of intangibles. I think we will win one or two games we are underdogs because of that very reason. Last year, the GA Game is an example. The USCe game wasn't we just wanted it. The Vandy game had several in in it due to officiating.

Intangibles play a roll and we have lost our share of games in the past due to it. The team that can overcome them, wins because they are going to happen. We are getting to the point we can overcome them, may not be there yet but close.

 

[jdub_101]

I think something a lot of people miss is *great* coaches make *great* turnarounds with teams. Coach Saban took an Alabama team just as run in the dirst as our program, and finished 12-2 his second season there. Coaching plays a bigger part in college football than any other sport that I can think of. You evaluate the weaknesses of another team and put your players in a position to capitalize on that with your strengths... Saban is great at this along with other coaches like Gus.

Alabama still had good recruiting classes before Saban got there.... Butch inherited a bigger obstacle

 

[BigTCountry]

Sometimes, teams win games because of intangibles. I think we will win one or two games we are underdogs because of that very reason. Last year, the GA Game is an example. The USCe game wasn't we just wanted it. The Vandy game had several in in it due to officiating.

Intangibles play a roll and we have lost our share of games in the past due to it. The team that can overcome them, wins because they are going to happen. We are getting to the point we can overcome them, may not be there yet but close.

:salute: I couldnt agree more!

 

[BigTCountry]

Sometimes, teams win games because of intangibles. I think we will win one or two games we are underdogs because of that very reason. Last year, the GA Game is an example. The USCe game wasn't we just wanted it. The Vandy game had several in in it due to officiating.

Intangibles play a roll and we have lost our share of games in the past due to it. The team that can overcome them, wins because they are going to happen. We are getting to the point we can overcome them, may not be there yet but close.

:salute: I couldnt agree more!

 

[sjt18]

Yeah were replacing players and so are they.... but wait a second we are replacing players on a very below average tennessee team. They are replacing players are a very good Mizzou team.

You are a smart guy. I'm being sincere. Please think about what you just posted and consider the logical fallacy.

I'll try to make a parallel. You and I both have orchards. You had a great season last year but had to cut down 2/3's of your trees due to age and replace them with lower quality trees. I had a bad season last year but have some of my best trees returning plus a bunch more high quality trees that are ready to yield. Who has the better shot at having a good season?

Last year doesn't effect this year for Mizzou because MOST of the stars from that team... pretty much all of them... are gone. Last year doesn't inhibit UT all that much because many of the lost players WERE underperformers regardless of the reasons.

Take a look at the two rosters as if you were a HC with an opportunity to coach one of them. Which would you really, honestly choose based on talent? Frankly, I'm taking the team with AJ, Maggitt, Randolph, Malone, North, Croom, etc... not the one with Bud Sasser as the best WR, 3 new DB's who were all rated 5.5 3* as recruits,... a team whose best recruiting class in the last 4 years was 31st... and who just lost 14 starters including the only 5* recruit the current coach ever signed.

Would you expect to win if we come out and lose to Utah St? Unless your psychic I dont think thats a promised win either from the football Gods.

Depends completely on the coaches. Let's say they do lose to USU. I would expect the staff to bust their tails to improve the young talent, change starters, or whatever else needed to make the team better. By the last 1/3 of the season the "inexperienced" excuse starts to run dry. If you've been developing and playing your young talent... they're no longer inexperienced.

My point is as a former athlete I have enough sense to think about yourself and what needs improvement more than the opponent.

That is what the players must do. That's even what the coaches should be doing now. But it isn't the basis for predicting how the game should turn out. The game will NOT be played simply on the introspection or strengths/weaknesses of one team. It will be a match up of strengths and weaknesses for BOTH rosters and teams.

Our list is long, need I go futher. Way below average QB play,

Mauk was under 50% completions in 3 of his 4 starts throwing to 2 very talented WR's and DGB who was one of the most talente WR's in college football. Worley and Dobbs struggled throwing to guys who had no idea what they were doing... according to the coaches. You are being too harsh on the QB's.

we have babies playing on the Oline and Dline. Our defense played decent last year, but also was completely demolished in some games including Mizzou and Oregon so on so on so on.

The OL is not made up of "babies". It is currently made up of 4 guys with 2+ years of college development and a guy who beat out others with seniority. It is a group of guys that the current staff has had two years to develop and prepare to play as a unit.

The defense was "decent"? It was the second worst scoring D (only to '12) in the history of UT football. It needed an infusion of talent and good coaching... it got some talent. We'll see about the coaching.

Lets think about those two areas listed above for a second QB and Oline what games do you think we can win if their not mature enough to play in the SEC and/or underperform? Do you in fact see into the future :crazy: to know that their going to meet their expectations or surpass them?

Right back at you concerning every new player who will start for every team UT plays. We can only look at talent potential at this point when you are talking new starters. USU and MU in particular replace a BUNCH of players.

and if its our recruits thats supposed to win these games. IDK them I havent seen them play, all ive heard is the media hype the big names up I will wait til Saturdays in the fall to find out what I know they can do. Im glad the star system for recruits makes us that much better.

They appear to be talented... If they aren't... who chose to sign them?

With all that said, I want them to prove me wrong, and I have faith that they will. when Idk? but until then Im not going to go around saying we can beat teams that recently kicked out tails. I will just enjoy it when it happens.

The coach UT needs will beat teams when he has a more talented roster... and often when he doesn't. I cannot say with certainty that UT will beat Mizzou. I can say with confidence that Jones will have more raw talent to work with.

 

[1972 Grad]

:salute: I couldnt agree more!

Apparently not!

 

[BigTCountry]

You are a smart guy. I'm being sincere. Please think about what you just posted and consider the logical fallacy.

I'll try to make a parallel. You and I both have orchards. You had a great season last year but had to cut down 2/3's of your trees due to age and replace them with lower quality trees. I had a bad season last year but have some of my best trees returning plus a bunch more high quality trees that are ready to yield. Who has the better shot at having a good season?

Last year doesn't effect this year for Mizzou because MOST of the stars from that team... pretty much all of them... are gone. Last year doesn't inhibit UT all that much because many of the lost players WERE underperformers regardless of the reasons.

Take a look at the two rosters as if you were a HC with an opportunity to coach one of them. Which would you really, honestly choose based on talent? Frankly, I'm taking the team with AJ, Maggitt, Randolph, Malone, North, Croom, etc... not the one with Bud Sasser as the best WR, 3 new DB's who were all rated 5.5 3* as recruits,... a team whose best recruiting class in the last 4 years was 31st... and who just lost 14 starters including the only 5* recruit the current coach ever signed.

Depends completely on the coaches. Let's say they do lose to USU. I would expect the staff to bust their tails to improve the young talent, change starters, or whatever else needed to make the team better. By the last 1/3 of the season the "inexperienced" excuse starts to run dry. If you've been developing and playing your young talent... they're no longer inexperienced.


That is what the players must do. That's even what the coaches should be doing now. But it isn't the basis for predicting how the game should turn out. The game will NOT be played simply on the introspection or strengths/weaknesses of one team. It will be a match up of strengths and weaknesses for BOTH rosters and teams.

Mauk was under 50% completions in 3 of his 4 starts throwing to 2 very talented WR's and DGB who was one of the most talente WR's in college football. Worley and Dobbs struggled throwing to guys who had no idea what they were doing... according to the coaches. You are being too harsh on the QB's.

The OL is not made up of "babies". It is currently made up of 4 guys with 2+ years of college development and a guy who beat out others with seniority. It is a group of guys that the current staff has had two years to develop and prepare to play as a unit.

The defense was "decent"? It was the second worst scoring D (only to '12) in the history of UT football. It needed an infusion of talent and good coaching... it got some talent. We'll see about the coaching.

Right back at you concerning every new player who will start for every team UT plays. We can only look at talent potential at this point when you are talking new starters. USU and MU in particular replace a BUNCH of players.

They appear to be talented... If they aren't... who chose to sign them?

The coach UT needs will beat teams when he has a more talented roster... and often when he doesn't. I cannot say with certainty that UT will beat Mizzou. I can say with confidence that Jones will have more raw talent to work with.

Well, you have some good points (besides the orchard analogy I prefer a garden) but all I was looking for is the last statement that we may appear to have more talent but that doesnt guarantee a win. Its one thing to be playing a highschool team like UTC that we know we should never lose to, its another to be talking about another previously strong SEC team and say well thats a for sure W, regardless to their losses, I obviously know it will effect the game, but what can effect the game more their losses or our inabilities. I rather base the game on what our guys can or cant do rather than saying their guys dont have talent.


With the QB situation, I have a hard time believing the WRs had problems all year maybe the first couple of games, such as route running. I still believe that its easy to see the need for major QB improvement.

I would agree to disagree and just say our team needs much improvement to pull this "W". with or without the talent coming in.

 

[BigTCountry]

Apparently not!

I dont recall ever stating in my life that intangibles are not important? Please fill me in on what I said to make you believe thats how I feel.

 

[1972 Grad]

I dont recall ever stating in my life that intangibles are not important? Please fill me in on what I said to make you believe thats how I feel.

You said that you couldn't agree more, and you posted it twice. I figured that if you twice said "I couldn't agree more,'" that you really meant it. It was a joke, based on your double post. I didn't even read what you were in agreement with.

 

[BigTCountry]

You said that you couldn't agree more, and you posted it twice. I figured that if you twice said "I couldn't agree more,'" that you really meant it. It was a joke, based on your double post. I didn't even read what you were in agreement with.

my bad. oh and btw GBO!

 

[sjt18]

With the QB situation, I have a hard time believing the WRs had problems all year maybe the first couple of games, such as route running. I still believe that its easy to see the need for major QB improvement.
.

The QB's need to play better but most of the improvement opportunity was with the WR's. They were very, very bad.... and not just for the first couple of games. North had never played WR before and was the best option the QB's had for most of the season. I REALLY like Croom. Always have. But he dropped way too many balls. Same with Smith.

You played so you should understand fully how much of a difference having confidence between players means. An OT and a OG with less talent but complete trust can often outperform more talented guys who don't have trust. It is even more pronounced between receivers and QB's... and especially for the QB since he has to initiate every play. If he cannot trust a guy to be where he's supposed to be... then that makes him hesitant and cautious. OTOH, high confidence makes a QB better than he really is at times.

If you want to see the ability of Worley to put balls in a small window when he trusts the WR... go back and watch his game as a Fr vs MTSU. He knew Rogers would be where he was supposed to be and knew he'd make an aggressive play on any ball thrown his way.

 

[Tennsolider1]

Whoever started this topic is a idiot lol. All these TENNESSEE fans were talking about how good a coach Cutcliffe was, but he wouldn't have been here to BUILD A PROGRAM with the way some of our fans think. Building a program takes time and more time. Our freshman man have been great in high school but this isn't high school. Freshman vs Seniors and Juniors isn't a good match up. CBJ is doing what he needs to do to bring in good recruits. Time will tell if he's a good coach. Cutcliffe is a GREAT coach that taught a lot of low * kids how to play ball. Instead of putting a time limit of what needs to happen, sit back and enjoy the show. It will be much sweeter that way. Haven't we had enough coaches for a while. Who will be y'all next choice if y'all have it y'all's way???? CBJ was a winner and will be again.

 

[1972 Grad]

Whoever started this topic is a idiot lol. All these TENNESSEE fans were talking about how good a coach Cutcliffe was, but he wouldn't have been here to BUILD A PROGRAM with the way some of our fans think. Building a program takes time and more time. Our freshman man have been great in high school but this isn't high school. Freshman vs Seniors and Juniors isn't a good match up. CBJ is doing what he needs to do to bring in good recruits. Time will tell if he's a good coach. Cutcliffe is a GREAT coach that taught a lot of low * kids how to play ball. Instead of putting a time limit of what needs to happen, sit back and enjoy the show. It will be much sweeter that way. Haven't we had enough coaches for a while. Who will be y'all next choice if y'all have it y'all's way???? CBJ was a winner and will be again.

I think that if them'all had their' all's way, them'all would want Gruden. I don't agree with them'all.