Would you be happy with 9-5?

#76
#76
VFL-82-JP said:
That's how most people define "progress," yes: more good things (in this case, Ws) and fewer bad things (Ls) happening over time.

As for regression, well, that's the opposite. When the # of Ws decreases, you're seeing regression.

This ain't rocket science, man. :)
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9-4 to 10-3 with the most returning starter in FBS really isn't progress
 
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#77
#77
As long as we play Alabama and as long as we keep recruiting average ranked players, we are an 8 to 9 regular season win team every single year.

We will never be anything more unless we pay up like Bama does. You get what you pay for.
 
#78
#78
chatt-townVOL said:
Lose the SEC Championship game, go to a high-end bowl, and lose there?

Very likely possibility, TECHNICALLY a more accomplished year than '15 since we won the East and went to a higher bowl....

Just curious how everyone would feel since it's a pretty possible/likely scenario.
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I love winning just as much as anyone, but at this point, I will be pleased if we finish without any more major injuries. Get our draft worthy guys into the league, top off the next class, and see how adjustments get made for next year.
 
#79
#79
Yankee_Vol said:
9-4 to 10-3 with the most returning starter in FBS really isn't progress
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If we win out we will finish with the same conference record that we did last year. Our floating west game was really a wash with Arky being replaced by A&M. The only difference this year is that UF has fell back from 7-1 to either 6-2 or a tie with UT at 5-3.
 
#80
#80
Catbone said:
As long as we play Alabama and as long as we keep recruiting average ranked players, we are an 8 to 9 regular season win team every single year.

We will never be anything more unless we pay up like Bama does. You get what you pay for.
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Come on Cat can we enjoy a couple of 9 win seasons first before we start complaining about them? I get your point but I still like this more than those 5-7 days and not even going to a stinking bowl. I need a little time to get used to 9-10 wins before I start taking it for granted. :)
 
#81
#81
We weren't "a MASH unit" week one against Appy State when we avoided total disaster by winning in overtime over a very overmatched team. They have underperformed all season by and large.

I saw some post in here saying everyone panicked when Peyton left for the next year and see how that turned out. BIG, BIG difference here. The quality of starters we will have next year coming back is miles behind what we had in 1998. I have said repeatedly I would not be shocked at all if we dropped game one next year to an improved Georgia Tech team that will return around 17 of the 22 starters. And they are improving - they just whipped Virginia Tech this past weekend. Start out 0-1 next season and things could get ugly very quick. I believe with the dropoff next year the ceiling is 8-4 and the floor is 6-6 in the regular season. And that seat will be sizzling and the atmosphere in Knoxville will be toxic.

If Butch Jones wanted to enjoy a long career in Knoxville this season may go down as the one that blew it up. That South Carolina game could haunt him for a long time. Just making the SEC Championship game, if they get smacked around again by Bama, will not help his cause in the long run. Especially if he followed that up with another loss in the bowl. Even if he wins the bowl after losing the SEC Title game next year could get really hot really fast with a team that IMO just won't have the weapons to compete. And if recruiting falls off this year - if we have a bad "season" next year the NEXT coach will have another complete rebuilding job. That's honestly why I think it would be a blessing in disguise if he somehow left after this season. I'm not sure who would hire him but you never know.
 
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#82
#82
chatt-townVOL said:
Lose the SEC Championship game, go to a high-end bowl, and lose there?

Very likely possibility, TECHNICALLY a more accomplished year than '15 since we won the East and went to a higher bowl....

Just curious how everyone would feel since it's a pretty possible/likely scenario.
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i think that would be fairly poetic considering how bad the East has been this year.
 
#83
#83
tvolsfan said:
This season is a huge disappointment. That won't change unless we somehow win the SEC.

This year was primed for success and we just look so average.
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sjt18 said:
What tvolsfan said.

This team was mature. It had guys who know how to "win". They didn't play well and have yet to look coached well.
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Ok, now see, I just think this is a bit of heavy breathing.

Before the season started, I thought 10-2, win the East, get to Atlanta, see what happens after...saw that as a really nice goal.

We are only one game off that mark, thus far. Disappointing, sure. But a "huge disappointment"? No. Not at all. 7-5 would be a huge disappointment (and clear regression). 8-4 would be stagnation. But we broke the FL streak; we beat UGa again. We played in, and won, the most-attended football game in history. With the exception of the Bama game, we have defended Neyland. We've done a lot of good things this year to offset the bad. 9-3 in the regular season is only one (admittedly ugly) USCe game below the level most here on VolNation were ready to call a great season (not making that up; there was a poll; 10-2 was the most common answer by far).

So, like the blog writer who said this season is a "disaster" (worse, really, he said "disaster would be an understatement"), I think you guys are breathing a little heavy.

Yes, there were the D4Hs and Nationdoms who said 15-0, playoffs or bust, but you guys weren't with them, were you? I have you both pegged as far more reasonable, usually.

One other point: If you're going to give negative marks for what the coach does directly control (and you should), you ought to be willing to give allowance for those things that the coach largely does NOT control, like an unprecedented string of injuries to team captains and other key players . Yeah, yeah, S&C can help prevent injuries, coach is ultimately responsible for everything that happens, yada, yada, I get it, but you gotta be reasonable, or it's not even worth having the conversation.

There is room for gradations between "very happy; success" and "major disappointment." For me, we're in that in-between space. I't put myself at "definitely disappointed in the USCe game, mildly disappointed in the season as a whole (as long as we don't lose again these next 2 weekends), and slightly concerned about whether Butch has much more upside."

That's a far cry from "huge disappointment."
 
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#84
#84
VFL-82-JP said:
Ok, now see, I just think this is a bit of heavy breathing.

Before the season started, I thought 10-2, win the East, get to Atlanta, see what happens after...saw that as a really nice goal.

We are only one game off that mark, thus far. Disappointing, sure. But a "huge disappointment"? No. Not at all. 7-5 would be a huge disappointment. 8-4 would be regression. But 9-3 in the regular season is only one (admittedly ugly) USCe game below the level most here on VolNation were ready to call a great season (not making that up; there was a poll; 10-2 was the most common answer by far).

So, like the blog writer who said that it is an "understatement" to call this season a "disaster," I think you guys are breathing a little heavy.

One other point: If you're going to give negative marks for what the coach does directly control (and you should), you ought to be willing to give allowance for those things that the coach largely does NOT control, like an unprecedented string of injuries to team captains and other key players . Yeah, yeah, S&C can help prevent injuries, coach is ultimately responsible for everything that happens, yada, yada, I get it, but you gotta be reasonable, or it's not even worth having the conversation.

There is room for gradations between "very happy; success" and "major disappointment." For me, we're in that in-between space. I't put myself at "definitely disappointed in the USCe game, mildly disappointed in the season as a whole (as long as we don't lose again these next 2 weekends), and slightly concerned about whether Butch has much more upside."

That's a far cry from "huge disappointment."
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this is all very reasonable.

losing to USCe sucked. a lot.

i think had we won that game, finish 10-2, win the East, you'd have a completely different narrative going on on about CBJ, and what a wonderful job he'd done considering all the injuries, player defections, and how well he's managed all that, and still gotten the team to achieve it's goals and get to 10 wins.

but that's not what happened, entirely. the narrative right now is ....someone's got to win the East. every body sucks. and none of them have a prayer against Bama. we're just a fish in Bama's barrell.

that game, and i don't want to make a single game a referendum on the entire season, but it's hard not to ignore it's significance in how our season is, and will be, viewed by us fans, pundits and media....
 
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#86
#86
I think needing help to win the East (especially at this point in the season) plays a large part in how people (it does slightly for me) feel about the season.
 
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#87
#87
DownNDirty said:
We weren't "a MASH unit" week one against Appy State when we avoided total disaster by winning in overtime over a very overmatched team. They have underperformed all season by and large.

I saw some post in here saying everyone panicked when Peyton left for the next year and see how that turned out. BIG, BIG difference here. The quality of starters we will have next year coming back is miles behind what we had in 1998. I have said repeatedly I would not be shocked at all if we dropped game one next year to an improved Georgia Tech team that will return around 17 of the 22 starters. And they are improving - they just whipped Virginia Tech this past weekend. Start out 0-1 next season and things could get ugly very quick. I believe with the dropoff next year the ceiling is 8-4 and the floor is 6-6 in the regular season. And that seat will be sizzling and the atmosphere in Knoxville will be toxic.

If Butch Jones wanted to enjoy a long career in Knoxville this season may go down as the one that blew it up. That South Carolina game could haunt him for a long time. Just making the SEC Championship game, if they get smacked around again by Bama, will not help his cause in the long run. Especially if he followed that up with another loss in the bowl. Even if he wins the bowl after losing the SEC Title game next year could get really hot really fast with a team that IMO just won't have the weapons to compete. And if recruiting falls off this year - if we have a bad "season" next year the NEXT coach will have another complete rebuilding job. That's honestly why I think it would be a blessing in disguise if he somehow left after this season. I'm not sure who would hire him but you never know.
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If you want to understand what happened to this season, look at the timeline of events after the last bowl win until now. And instead of looking at it from the perspective you and the other rednecks view it, try imagining how you could have handled it had you been in charge. I seriously doubt you would have done well at all.

And if you can't wrap your head around that, try figuring out what I think would be a blessing in disguise.
 
#88
#88
NO.

I remember making fun of South Carolina ENDLESSLY for going 9-5 and getting their asses kicked in the SECC back in 2010.

10-4/11-3 or bust.
 
#89
#89
VFL-82-JP said:
Before the season started, I thought 10-2, win the East, get to Atlanta, see what happens after...saw that as a really nice goal.

We are only one game off that mark, thus far.
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Problem is that Jones has been at least "one game off that mark" each of his 4 years. I can live with a disappointment in a single game and especially if it is offset by some good surprise wins over time. But that isn't what we're getting. We are getting consistent losses in games where UT is the underdog and then at least one loss a year as the favorite.

And it isn't just "one game off". Had UT dominated the opposition before injuries struck then maybe you could make that argument. But they didn't. They won on heart in spite of the way they played.

Injuries haven't even been the most critical factor on O. They look poorly coached. The game planning, game prep, and playcalling look subpar. And they haven't really shown a ton of game to game or year over year improvement. If anything, the O regressed last year to this year in spite of returning just about everyone.

It isn't ONLY the record that indicates whether there's improvement or not.

Disappointing, sure. But a "huge disappointment"? No. Not at all. 7-5 would be a huge disappointment (and clear regression). 8-4 would be stagnation. But we broke the FL streak; we beat UGa again. We played in, and won, the most-attended football game in history. With the exception of the Bama game, we have defended Neyland. We've done a lot of good things this year to offset the bad. 9-3 in the regular season is only one (admittedly ugly) USCe game below the level most here on VolNation were ready to call a great season (not making that up; there was a poll; 10-2 was the most common answer by far).
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Again, if the Vols had been dominating then struggled after injuries set in then you have a point. The USCe loss was just a symptom.

So, like the blog writer who said this season is a "disaster" (worse, really, he said "disaster would be an understatement"), I think you guys are breathing a little heavy.
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Anywhere else a team with playoff caliber talent that ends up with at least 3 losses with one of them coming to a Muschamp coached team with the least talent in the SEC.... is a disaster. Here.... it is rationalized.

Yes, there were the D4Hs and Nationdoms who said 15-0, playoffs or bust, but you guys weren't with them, were you? I have you both pegged as far more reasonable, usually.
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I thought the team had real potential for a 10-2 to 12-0 season. Most of that hinged on whether the OL took a big step forward from last year.... which it should have with everyone returning with more experience and development.

But this team played like a 7-5 team even before the injuries. App St outplayed them for most of the game.... as did VT minus all the turnovers.

One other point: If you're going to give negative marks for what the coach does directly control (and you should), you ought to be willing to give allowance for those things that the coach largely does NOT control, like an unprecedented string of injuries to team captains and other key players .
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If it had only been this year.... then sure. But not when it is 3 years running. I was ready to give him credit when he replaced the S&C coach.... but it seems that move had nothing to do with injuries or player development.

Yeah, yeah, S&C can help prevent injuries, coach is ultimately responsible for everything that happens, yada, yada, I get it, but you gotta be reasonable, or it's not even worth having the conversation.
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Then be reasonable. One year... write it off as a tough break. Three years.... why hasn't the coach fixed the problem?

There is room for gradations between "very happy; success" and "major disappointment." For me, we're in that in-between space. I't put myself at "definitely disappointed in the USCe game, mildly disappointed in the season as a whole (as long as we don't lose again these next 2 weekends), and slightly concerned about whether Butch has much more upside."

That's a far cry from "huge disappointment."
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I was very skeptical of Jones for most of his first 3 years. I was hopeful headed into this season that Jones' plan actually might turn into something special. I am now more skeptical of him than I've been at any previous time.

He appears to have fatal flaws with no ability to change them.
 
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#90
#90
So go play Bama again and lose. Then get invited to a high end bowl game and lose? Hell no I would not be happy with that at all. Especially with the team geting healthier and the cancerous tumor has been removed on offense.
 
#91
#91
No I won't be happy with 9-5. I feel like we must be competitive in the SEC cg and win the bowl game. Unfortunely I think we go 9-5. I just can't see us beating a formidable opponent with the lack of defense we are playing right now. We need to match up against a pass happy team. Our loss at the dt position is going to kill us against a pro style running team.
 
#93
#93
There is no reason that this team shouldn't get to 10 wins.

Anything short of that and it falls on the coaches plain and simple. The team hasn't showed up to a game yet with a sense of urgency and have looked sloppy all season.

Sure, the injuries have been a problem but it shouldn't take 6 to 7 years to build a program as Jones has stated. He has recruited 82 players in 3 classes. If there are depth issues, it's on him and the staff.
 
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#98
#98
JonGrudensAgent said:
There is no reason that this team shouldn't get to 10 wins.

Anything short of that and it falls on the coaches plain and simple. The team hasn't showed up to a game yet with a sense of urgency and have looked sloppy all season.

Sure, the injuries have been a problem but it shouldn't take 6 to 7 years to build a program as Jones has stated. He has recruited 82 players in 3 classes. If there are depth issues, it's on him and the staff.
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Bingo! His team was injured but in yr 4

He mismanaged Hurd
discipline got worse
To many TOs by top players
Outcoached by muschamp again
Player development not up to par for alot of players.

Pretty good to great coaches would have it rolling since last yr with this roster imo.
 
#100
#100
Yes, I'd be happy but that's only because I don't choose to base my happiness on any circumstances since they are temporary and subject to change.
 
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