WNBA discussion thread?

[lvocd]

I like Clark well enough, but I wonder if she doesn't learn to play more contained and also regain her ability to make extremely long three-point shots that she might not remain the top WNBA draw throughout the career. Meanwhile, Page Becker already seems more WNBA ready with a poise and maturity the is phenomenal for a second-year player. I do love Caitlin's ability to assist, but Page and Miles are not that far off and have fewer turnover. I am for all these young players to excel but it would be weird to me if Caitlin still it the main magnet for the WNBA with so many outstanding young players unless she starts looking extraordinary at the pro level.

I suspect that one of the points of appeal for a lot of fans is that Clark has a boyfriend and not a girlfriend. I also suspect Bueckers’ popularity probably dipped a tiny bit once she was outed. Again, I could be simply too old and lived through too much myself to imagine there aren’t at least a few hundred folk who suddenly weren’t quite as enamored with PB (and now her gf Azzi Fudd) as they were before they knew her truth. I pray I AM wrong.

 

[1reVOLver]

I suspect that one of the points of appeal for a lot of fans is that Clark has a boyfriend and not a girlfriend. I also suspect Bueckers’ popularity probably dipped a tiny bit once she was outed. Again, I could be simply too old and lived through too much myself to imagine there aren’t at least a few hundred folk who suddenly weren’t quite as enamored with PB (and now her gf Azzi Fudd) as they were before they knew her truth. I pray I AM wrong.

One. You’re probably right. Unfortunate reality is that this country has more than its fair share of ignorant biggots.

Two. Ms. Bueckers has been “out”, if quietly, for a few years.

 

[LVfanLasVegas]

I would certainly hope not but you may have a point with the thoughts of being 'out.'

On the other hand I would say that Paige was part of a known powerhouse among several other talented teammates. A perennial final 4 team with a rich history. Clark took a lesser known program (to the general masses) and put it on her back to make consecutive final appearances with an upset in the semis each year. Clark was seen more as an underdog than Paige was due to the schools they played at. Everyone, or most everyone, loves the story of an underdog which I think explains her being more popular. I would hope we are beyond the aforementioned silliness, but I know it is still there for some.

 

[madtownvol]

I suspect that one of the points of appeal for a lot of fans is that Clark has a boyfriend and not a girlfriend. I also suspect Bueckers’ popularity probably dipped a tiny bit once she was outed. Again, I could be simply too old and lived through too much myself to imagine there aren’t at least a few hundred folk who suddenly weren’t quite as enamored with PB (and now her gf Azzi Fudd) as they were before they knew her truth. I pray I AM wrong.

What is the evidence for Paige's dip in popularity?

Her commercial endorsements seem to be way up. Ratings for Wings are not that far behind Fever games in ratings. Certainly among the Fox news crowd, being straight or gay is a big deal but the core demographic for the WNBA and sports marketing in general is not 70 year old white men in MAGA hats screaming at their television sets 24/7. [For the record, I am not being "political" just providing a description. I have nothing against 70 year old white men in MAGA hats who scream at their television 24/7. It is a free country].

But for the under 30 segment and female audience, an athlete being involved in a same-sex relationship is now a yawner. Some social media cultural warriors did try to go "Bud Light" on the Wings for drafting Fudd but the Fudd cancel was a dud.

I think the cultural warriors have even lost interest in the Lesbian WNBA versus Saint Straight Caitlin battle. The whole thing has settled into a more sports-oriented discussion.

 

[madtownvol]

On a different note, Amazon Prime's WNBA coverage now has Candace calling some games (complementing with her NBA gig call games with with D. Wade--they are a great tandem!!) and Chamique Holdsclaw is part of Prime's half time team.

 

[brittannica]

Paige got to attend the Met Gala, which was a little under-deserved imo, but holds cultural cache and says something about how other celebs view her.

 

[madtownvol]

I like Clark well enough, but I wonder if she doesn't learn to play more contained and also regain her ability to make extremely long three-point shots that she might not remain the top WNBA draw throughout the career. Meanwhile, Page Becker already seems more WNBA ready with a poise and maturity the is phenomenal for a second-year player. I do love Caitlin's ability to assist, but Page and Miles are not that far off and have fewer turnover. I am for all these young players to excel but it would be weird to me if Caitlin still it the main magnet for the WNBA with so many outstanding young players unless she starts looking extraordinary at the pro level.

Even in college, the logo 3 was a poor shot for her from a % standpoint. Yes, when she made them, it lit the arena up but I would bet $ the overall analytics on that shot was not great.

In the pros, particularly as a rookie, she put up monster numbers but her efficiency was low and it was telling that the Fever became a better team without her during her injury riddled 2nd season because they had a more balanced and efficient offensive attack.

I think we are seeing a transition this season. Her coach has to balance the fan demand for CC to have the ball in her hands at all times and put up triple doubles versus what is best for the team. But we are now seeing Clark playing more off the ball and I think that will continue more and more. She is a great passer so will still get her assists but her utilization will go down (which should also help her TOs). This season, Clark has done a great job at getting to the rim, where she is a good finisher to compensate for her ongoing struggles from beyond the arc.

I am sure her 3-shot shot will eventually work back up to her historical baseline, which i think is around 37%.

 

[lvocd]

What is the evidence for Paige's dip in popularity?

Her commercial endorsements seem to be way up. Ratings for Wings are not that far behind Fever games in ratings. Certainly among the Fox news crowd, being straight or gay is a big deal but the core demographic for the WNBA and sports marketing in general is not 70 year old white men in MAGA hats screaming at their television sets 24/7. [For the record, I am not being "political" just providing a description. I have nothing against 70 year old white men in MAGA hats who scream at their television 24/7. It is a free country].

But for the under 30 segment and female audience, an athlete being involved in a same-sex relationship is now a yawner. Some social media cultural warriors did try to go "Bud Light" on the Wings for drafting Fudd but the Fudd cancel was a dud.

I think the cultural warriors have even lost interest in the Lesbian WNBA versus Saint Straight Caitlin battle. The whole thing has settled into a more sports-oriented discussion.

I said “I suspect,” not “I know for certain.” I was primarily referring to the the group of people who bring carloads of little boys and girls to games because they all want to be just like Bueckers. Like I said, I SUSPECT at least a FEW HUNDRED fans across the nation were put off by her coming out. Maybe you‘ve never been on the painful side of homophobia in sports to understand how deep it can go even when it sometimes seems to a lot of people like it no longer exists. It does.

As for commercial endorsements, I also SUSPECT at least some of her current deals were made before the whole Page-Azzi relationship was public knowledge that had reached the Mommy/Daddy set yet.

Like I said, I obviously hope to be wrong.

 

[madtownvol]

I said “I suspect,” not “I know for certain.” I was primarily referring to the the group of people who bring carloads of little boys and girls to games because they all want to be just like Bueckers. Like I said, I SUSPECT at least a FEW HUNDRED fans across the nation were put off by her coming out. Maybe you‘ve never been on the painful side of homophobia in sports to understand how deep it can go even when it sometimes seems to a lot of people like it no longer exists. It does.

As for commercial endorsements, I also SUSPECT at least some of her current deals were made before the whole Page-Azzi relationship was public knowledge that had reached the Mommy/Daddy set yet.

Like I said, I obviously hope to be wrong.

Of course, out of all the sports fans in the world, I am sure we can find a few hundred who have become anti-Paige because of her sexual orientation.

I am not denying the existence of homophobia but I am saying it is not evenly distributed across fan bases. Being gay is far more taboo in the NFL for example than being a lesbian in the W.

In the media, looks carry a lot of weight and basketball Barbie (blonde, blue eyed, Paige Bueckers) is on track to be the pretty face of the WNBA. If she were straight, maybe she would be even "bigger" but very straight, quite attractive and the best player in W, A'ja Wilson, does not get a fraction of the media spotlight that Paige has. In a complex world, there are a lot of identity "intersections" that impact these popularity outcomes.

 

[StorrsCentral]

I don't believe Paiges popularity has diminished in a way that is noticeable, if at all. I'm in my late 70's and have seen a lot of changes regarding this topic during my lifetime. The young boys and girls flock to Paige because of the kind of person she is as well as being a great basketball player. If there was a big issue, I don't think the parents would allow them to be around her. Besides, these young kids know nothing about sexual orientation or what that means, but regardless, by the time they are old enough to understand this, it will be no longer an issue.

 

[RetroVol]

In Clark’s case, I‘m not so sure her personality is big enough outside her game that she’d remain in high demand for endorsements for very long if she were to suddenly stop playing basketball. I could be wrong, of course.

Can someone suggest a personality that was big enough without a long playing career? Charles Barkley is still big -- but long career, high performance, and commentator roles have all helped him maintain marketability. Peyton Manning is one I can think of that has stayed marketable without a lot of commentating roles, but he does lots of other things, plus his charity work and the self-deprecating tone of so much of what he does seems to wear well. Roger Federer signed long term marketing contracts while still at the peak of his career and continues to do charity work.

 

[madtownvol]

Can someone suggest a personality that was big enough without a long playing career? Charles Barkley is still big -- but long career, high performance, and commentator roles have all helped him maintain marketability. Peyton Manning is one I can think of that has stayed marketable without a lot of commentating roles, but he does lots of other things, plus his charity work and the self-deprecating tone of so much of what he does seems to wear well. Roger Federer signed long term marketing contracts while still at the peak of his career and continues to do charity work.

The rules and criteria have changed with social media. After Simone Biles, Livvy Dunne is probably the most famous gymnast in the US. She never made an olympic team and was a good but not great college competitor but she built a massive social media following (and is now dating MLB superstar Paul Skenes).

The list of social media influencers (with million plus followers) who don't have a long career track record is growing by the day. Ja Morant comes to mind. If you are just going by who you see in TV commercials or commenting on ESPN and the like, you are using the wrong metric.

 

[RetroVol]

After Simone Biles, Livvy Dunne is probably the most famous gymnast in the US.

Good point! And I've even mentioned her a couple of times. And she has just signed a marketing contract with some company. Then again, the criteria were "high demand for a long time." Too early to tell about that.

 

[glv98]

I caught the 2nd half of Sparks vs. Fever last night. The Sparks have gotten objectively worse by letting go of their European PG tandem, swapping out a 25 year old Rickea Jackson for a 35 year old Nneka Ogwumike. The one bright spot is that Cam Brink came on strong in the 2nd half and may be finding her game.

Rae was Rae, makes a great play, then falls down trying to make a pass leading to a TO. She is a little baffling at times.

I suspect Rae may be headed back to the bench as this train wreck of a team tries to figure itself out. Her energy may be best coming in bursts off the bench. I wish she had gone to one of the expansion teams.

Hard to understand how the Sparks can't see how much better they were last year with Allemande at pg and KP off ball. Apparently KP is going to continue to try to prove she can be a winning lead guard. Meanwhile the Sparks have 24 assists and 38 turnovers in their two losses, and Nnecka only got 5 shots up the last game. KP and Hamby had 10 turnovers between them. Their defense is actually worse than last year if possible. Zero adjustments made.

Even with all this, Robert's criticism was they didn't shoot enough threes. Not sure who she wants to shoot them, everyone not named Plum or Nneka is 2 - 1,000,000 on the season from three. This was never a win now roster.

Sparks play late tonight against the Toronto expansion team. Close as you can get this early in the season to a must win

 

[glv98]

I've been surprised how good Olivia Miles has been this early. She landed in exactly the right situation with Cheryl Reeve as her coach and being handed the keys from the get go.

Last night was a really fun game to watch, seemed that Paige got a little timid at the end. Some strange coaching decisions from Dallas, and after the game their new coach called them a selfish locker room worried about points and minutes. We'll see how the latest edition of coaching straight talk goes over.

 

[glv98]

Mystics tipping off against the Fever now. Mystics are so fun to watch,

 

[glv98]

Big game for Rickea and the Sky later tonight against Phoenix. It's a much tougher team than the two they've won against so far. Unfortunately RJ still hasn't found her shot but found a way to score 18 pts in their win over Golden State. When she finally did hit a 3, it was a huge one, a dagger 3. Also hit crucial free throws. She's gotten to the line more already this year then ever before and is hitting free throws. Her playmaking has become off the charts, with a career high 5 assists. Her defense has also really improved thanks her great relationship with Latricia Trammell. The Skies team defensive effort against GS was incredible.

RJ seems the happiest and by far the most free to explore her offensive bag she's been so far in her pro career. Just got to start reliably hitting shots and she's on an All Star level.

Even missing two starters, The Sky is really fun to watch and is a well constructed roster. Jacy Sheldon and Gabriella Jaquez have been very effective role players.. Kamilla had a good defensive game but remains a step slow and a little out of sync on offense.. The vet Elizabeth Williams is a great backup for her. Diggins is exactly the point guard they needed, and Cloud will be a good backup. Once they get Stevens and Carrington back this team is going to be a really fun watch.

 

[glv98]

Interesting first half in Indy. Fever came out hotter than a pepper sprout, CC hit her first two 3s, and Indy went ahead by double digits. Then Shakira Austin went to work and the Fever broke. Now they cant throw it in the ocean from the shore, CC is 2- 10 and the Mystics are ahead by four at halftime.

 

[glv98]

In regard to whether Caitlin Clarke's popularity might wain, IMO alot of the notoriety of her and Angel was based on our love for conflict and the social factors and perceptions that surrounded it . It was bound to wear off as we move further away from that event three or four years ago.

I do also think it will recede some as Clark indeed is revealed to be a great but not earth shattering player.

 

[glv98]

Damn Mystics by 10 early in the 3rd.

Clark Mitchell and Boston are a combined 9 of 30 from the field.