Why Shoop isn't a problem (Long)

[schwompal]

Jancek did better with injuries and with a less talented roster. The same could be said of just about every d-coordinator in the last 10 years, except Sunseri. Tennessee is 71st in total defense this year. That's horrendous.

Just a little comparison, Chavis had the 4th ranked defense in the country the year Fulmer was fired, and Tennessee couldn't gain a yard on offense to save its life.

 

[schwompal]

Jancek had better DTs and LBs on the field.

Coaching? Shoop inherited most of those players last year.

 

[05_never_again]

Jancek did better with injuries and with a less talented roster. The same could be said of just about every d-coordinator in the last 10 years, except Sunseri. Tennessee is 71st in total defense this year. That's horrendous.

Jancek had nowhere near the level of injuries Shoop did during his first year.

 

[schwompal]

Jancek had nowhere near the level of injuries Shoop did during his first year.

And the excuse this year is an injury at MLB. Well, Monte Kiffin started a walk-on at Mike, which is what Shoop is doing. Tennessee had a top 20 defense that year.

 

[37620VOL]

Coaching? Shoop inherited most of those players last year.

Who? Vickers?

Who did he inherit that didn't get injured?

 

[TN Outlaw]

Jancek did better with injuries and with a less talented roster. The same could be said of just about every d-coordinator in the last 10 years, except Sunseri. Tennessee is 71st in total defense this year. That's horrendous.

Dont just go off of stats. You could literally use stats to make a point and then take diff stats and refute your own point. Bama and UGA are both in the bottom half of the SEC in sacks. Does that mean their Def's are no good at disrupting plays? Look at the whole picture.

Fact of the matter is other than Tech, the D has played decent. They have lived on the field and that cant happen. We should have enough depth to rotate guys but for some reason the staff keeps alot of the same guys out there. Their gonna get winded and gonna give up plays unless the offense starts pulling their wt and Jones gets guys good enough to rotate in.

 

[37620VOL]

And the excuse this year is an injury at MLB. Well, Monte Kiffin started a walk-on at Mike, which is what Shoop is doing. Tennessee had a top 20 defense that year.

No excuses this year. Other than GT, I haven't seen a bad defense this year.

 

[37620VOL]

And the excuse this year is an injury at MLB. Well, Monte Kiffin started a walk-on at Mike, which is what Shoop is doing. Tennessee had a top 20 defense that year.

Eric Berry
Janzen Jackson
Rico McCoy
Herman Lathers
Chris Walker
Ben Martin
Montori Hughs
Gerald Williams
Dennis Rogan

 

[schwompal]

Dont just go off of stats. You could literally use stats to make a point and then take diff stats and refute your own point. Bama and UGA are both in the bottom half of the SEC in sacks. Does that mean their Def's are no good at disrupting plays? Look at the whole picture.

Fact of the matter is other than Tech, the D has played decent. They have lived on the field and that cant happen. We should have enough depth to rotate guys but for some reason the staff keeps alot of the same guys out there. Their gonna get winded and gonna give up plays unless the offense starts pulling their wt and Jones gets guys good enough to rotate in.

Yes, but total yards and points allowed are pretty good measures of a defense. I concede that judging Tennessee's defense based on the 41 points scored in UGA game would be silly(because of bad offensive turnovers), but yards allowed is a different measure and far more appropriate. By that metric, the defense was bad.

 

[schwompal]

Eric Berry
Janzen Jackson
Rico McCoy
Herman Lathers
Chris Walker
Ben Martin
Montori Hughs
Gerald Williams
Dennis Rogan

Yes, and if we believe recruiting rankings as a rough metric for measuring talent, then the average number of stars in the two deep for this defense would be greater than that of 2007 defense.

 

[37620VOL]

Yes, but total yards and points allowed are pretty good measures of a defense. I concede that judging Tennessee's defense based on the 41 points scored in UGA game would be silly(because of bad offensive turnovers), but yards allowed is a different measure and far more appropriate. By that metric, the defense was bad.

DFEI is the best measure of defensive performance.

FEI is a college football rating system based on opponent-adjusted drive efficiency. Approximately 20,000 possessions are contested annually in FBS vs. FBS games. First-half clock-kills and end-of-game garbage drives and scores are filtered out. Defensive Efficiency (DE) is the value generated by a team's defense per non-garbage possession relative to national average scoring rates by starting field position. DFEI is value generated per possession adjusted for the strength of opponent offenses faced. FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2017 FEI RATINGS, DEFENSE

Unfortunately, we will not have access to these stats until after the 7th week of the season. If you look at our 2016 DFEI, yes, we did indeed suck. Everyone with eyes can see that.

By my eyeball test, we look better this year. After week 7 I'll see if I'm 20-20 or blind as a bat.

 

[37620VOL]

Yes, and if we believe recruiting rankings as a rough metric for measuring talent, then the average number of stars in the two deep for this defense would be greater than that of 2007 defense.

There is an argument that the talent is roughly equal, but there is no one on our defense even close to the talent level of Eric Berry or Janzen Jackson. Bituli may turn into a Rico McCoy. 2007 also played with a competent offense.

IMO the 2017 defense may be as good as the 2007 defense. We will see.

The 2007 defense was ranked #37. See here: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | FEI COLLEGE FOOTBALL RATINGS 2007

 

[Tin Man]

First, I want to say I use to be very critical about Shoop. I consider myself slightly intelligent when it comes to football, but I am no genius by any means. My dad has taught me over the years a lot about the game more than just the final score.

I see a lot of people on here and other social media that complain about Shoop being the problem and there is a few things that I want too point out. I am not going to talk about every game because this thread would be 54835824 words long.

If you didn't watch the Georgia game and heard the score 41-0 you would say, "Jeez did Tennessee put a defense on the field?" If you actually look at it though it wasn't our defense that made it 41-0.

Lets start with the first play of the game, we throw a pick on our 27 yard line. So, the offense has already dug the defense in a hole and Georgia only has to go 27 yards. They come out and run 3 plays for only a total of 7 yards and get the field goal. Good defensive stand.

Georgia kicks it off and we go 3 plays for a total of 1 yard and we punt. Georgia fields the punt and their first play on that drive Vickers gets a sack and they go 3 plays for 0 yards and punt. Good defensive stand.

We field the punt and yet again go 3 plays for a total of 3 yards and punt. Georgia gets a good punt return for 18 yards and puts them about at the 50. This drive we have them on 3rd and 11 and they complete a pass to Godwin and Warrior forces a fumble that they recover and eventually get the TD on this drive. How wore out do you think the defense was by this time because our offense couldn't give them more than a 3 play break?

They kickoff to us and we run 7 plays for 28 yards and punt for a touch back. Our defense comes out and holds them yet again for 3 plays and only 5 yards gained and force them to punt. We field the punt and go 3 plays for only 7 yards and have to punt again.

2 plays into this Georgia drive Martin gets an interception for us on the Georgia 27. We come out with a great scoring opportunity only down 10-0 and 2 plays into our drive we fumble and Georgia recovers. By this time our defense has given us so many opportunities it is unreal that we haven't put 1 point on the board.

Even after Georgia gets the fumble our defense holds them to 3 plays for 0 yards and force the punt. Yet again our offense comes out and runs 3 plays for a total of 4 yards and has too punt.

The next Georgia drive is where you can start to see the defense is getting tired. They go 11 plays for 87 yards and a touchdown.

They kickoff to us and the first play of our drive is an interception and Reed returns it for 34 yards to our 26 yard line. Here we go again defense has to come out and stop them from going only 26 yards with virtually no breather.

Then it's halftime and I am not going into as much detail on the second half because this is getting so long, but the last two touchdowns they had they only had to go a combined 81 yards. So it is like they basically started on the 40.5 Tennessee yard line those two drives. We also made them punt two more times in the second half. We lost a fumble and had to punt 3 more times in the second half.

With all that said if you are still here reading this Shoop's defense isn't that bad. It's our offense that keeps digging us in holes.

Shoop isn't the problem, the offense is.

I wish the like button was working. Thanks for a thoughtful post.

 

[tm3]

The last 3 SEC teams to visit Neyland before the UGA game each rushed for over 400 yards.

That is on the defense, whether it is Shoop running it or bUTch micromanaging it.

 

[JettVol]

I would name Shoop interim HC and let CBJ hit the road. I think the team might actually play for Shoop harder than they are currently playing for CBJ. Just my thoughts though, I seriously doubt that this scenario would happen.

 

[05_never_again]

And the excuse this year is an injury at MLB. Well, Monte Kiffin started a walk-on at Mike, which is what Shoop is doing. Tennessee had a top 20 defense that year.

I'm not using that as an excuse this year. The defense this year I think is better than last year, but that's a pretty low bar.

 

[yuenglinguy78]

I agree we can't keep using the injury bug as an excuse, I do have to say though that it makes Shoop's job a lot harder.

 

[yuenglinguy78]

The last 3 SEC teams to visit Neyland before the UGA game each rushed for over 400 yards.

That is on the defense, whether it is Shoop running it or bUTch micromanaging it.

Missouri 2016- 420 rushing yards- They scored 37

Kentucky 2016- 443 rushing yards- They scored 36

Alabama 2016- 409 rushing yards- They scored 49

Georgia 2017- 294 rushing yards- They scored 41

That shows how short the field was when they were starting their drives.

 

[schwompal]

There is an argument that the talent is roughly equal, but there is no one on our defense even close to the talent level of Eric Berry or Janzen Jackson. Bituli may turn into a Rico McCoy. 2007 also played with a competent offense.

IMO the 2017 defense may be as good as the 2007 defense. We will see.

The 2007 defense was ranked #37. See here: FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | FEI COLLEGE FOOTBALL RATINGS 2007

It's true that we were 37 in total defense in '16. Justin Wilcox consistently produced better defenses than that with far less talent, and a lot of people on this board thought he was awful (he wasn't). I think sitting at 71 in total D after four games, you're never going to get to 4th in total d. I'll be surprised if we have a top 50 defense this year.

 

[37620VOL]

It's true that we were 37 in total defense in '16. Justin Wilcox consistently produced better defenses than that with far less talent, and a lot of people on this board thought he was awful (he wasn't). I think sitting at 71 in total D after four games, you're never going to get to 4th in total d. I'll be surprised if we have a top 50 defense this year.

I've enjoyed this discussion. I guess we'll have to watch the next two games and revisit.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

Good post, OP.

I've been saying this since last season when hardly anyone would listen, but watching this season has further convinced me of it: the problem is offense, not defense. Josh Dobbs' legs merely masked the issues with the offense last season.

We had bad luck last year with injuries on the defensive side of the ball. That's why our defense sucked at the end of the season, but it looked elite against Virginia Tech, App State, and for much of the Florida game.

This season, defense looks so much worse than it is because the offense is so terrible. Defense is tougher than offense from an endurance standpoint. You are trying to stop moving objects. You don't know where the offensive players are going. You have to expend more energy to stop the opposing players than they have to run their routes, etc. When your offense sucks (particularly in a quick moving system like ours), it means that you're forcing your defense to play more snaps tired.

Football is a team game and the best coaches no how to manage their offenses to help the defense. Our offense is terrible and makes life incredibly difficult on the D. But you can see in a lot of the early drives when well-rested, our D is playing excellent. It's only when they are forced to be out on the field too long that they start playing poorly.

That's not Shop's fault.

 

[Hank Bukowski]

First, I want to say I use to be very critical about Shoop. I consider myself slightly intelligent when it comes to football, but I am no genius by any means. My dad has taught me over the years a lot about the game more than just the final score.

I see a lot of people on here and other social media that complain about Shoop being the problem and there is a few things that I want too point out. I am not going to talk about every game because this thread would be 54835824 words long.

If you didn't watch the Georgia game and heard the score 41-0 you would say, "Jeez did Tennessee put a defense on the field?" If you actually look at it though it wasn't our defense that made it 41-0.

Lets start with the first play of the game, we throw a pick on our 27 yard line. So, the offense has already dug the defense in a hole and Georgia only has to go 27 yards. They come out and run 3 plays for only a total of 7 yards and get the field goal. Good defensive stand.

Georgia kicks it off and we go 3 plays for a total of 1 yard and we punt. Georgia fields the punt and their first play on that drive Vickers gets a sack and they go 3 plays for 0 yards and punt. Good defensive stand.

We field the punt and yet again go 3 plays for a total of 3 yards and punt. Georgia gets a good punt return for 18 yards and puts them about at the 50. This drive we have them on 3rd and 11 and they complete a pass to Godwin and Warrior forces a fumble that they recover and eventually get the TD on this drive. How wore out do you think the defense was by this time because our offense couldn't give them more than a 3 play break?

They kickoff to us and we run 7 plays for 28 yards and punt for a touch back. Our defense comes out and holds them yet again for 3 plays and only 5 yards gained and force them to punt. We field the punt and go 3 plays for only 7 yards and have to punt again.

2 plays into this Georgia drive Martin gets an interception for us on the Georgia 27. We come out with a great scoring opportunity only down 10-0 and 2 plays into our drive we fumble and Georgia recovers. By this time our defense has given us so many opportunities it is unreal that we haven't put 1 point on the board.

Even after Georgia gets the fumble our defense holds them to 3 plays for 0 yards and force the punt. Yet again our offense comes out and runs 3 plays for a total of 4 yards and has too punt.

The next Georgia drive is where you can start to see the defense is getting tired. They go 11 plays for 87 yards and a touchdown.

They kickoff to us and the first play of our drive is an interception and Reed returns it for 34 yards to our 26 yard line. Here we go again defense has to come out and stop them from going only 26 yards with virtually no breather.

Then it's halftime and I am not going into as much detail on the second half because this is getting so long, but the last two touchdowns they had they only had to go a combined 81 yards. So it is like they basically started on the 40.5 Tennessee yard line those two drives. We also made them punt two more times in the second half. We lost a fumble and had to punt 3 more times in the second half.

With all that said if you are still here reading this Shoop's defense isn't that bad. It's our offense that keeps digging us in holes.

Shoop isn't the problem, the offense is.

Outstanding post. Didn't check all the facts but will assume it's all accurate because it sounds like what I saw. Defense indeed played well early but got gassed even before halftime because our offense couldn't move the chains at all. "Complementary football" was completely MIA.

I trust Shoop to pull it together, in spite of 41-0 and GA Tech's 600+ yards rushing. LB continues to concern me. Bituli and Sapp? YES. But who else among the dozen or so LBs we have on scholarship?

 

[TN Outlaw]

Yes, but total yards and points allowed are pretty good measures of a defense. I concede that judging Tennessee's defense based on the 41 points scored in UGA game would be silly(because of bad offensive turnovers), but yards allowed is a different measure and far more appropriate. By that metric, the defense was bad.

The same logic applies as my previous post

If the D is forced to be on the field so long, mostly because the O cant even get a 1st down, the D is going to give up yards, points, 1st downs, etc. The more exhausted the D gets, the more they will give up.

Im not saying none of the problem is on the D or that they are elite by any stretch of the imagination but they are not as bad as the stats indicate imho. Idk the best measure of a Defense when taking into account a bad offense and exhaustion but i dont think theyve looked so bad other than Tech until they were finally worn out.

Now the offense.....

 

[05_never_again]

The same logic applies as my previous post

If the D is forced to be on the field so long, mostly because the O cant even get a 1st down, the D is going to give up yards, points, 1st downs, etc. The more exhausted the D gets, the more they will give up.

Im not saying none of the problem is on the D or that they are elite by any stretch of the imagination but they are not as bad as the stats indicate imho. Idk the best measure of a Defense when taking into account a bad offense and exhaustion but i dont think theyve looked so bad other than Tech until they were finally worn out.

Now the offense.....

The sad part is that the defensive line is supposed to be elite. #1 JUCO player last year as a pass rusher, a 5-star DT, and a borderline 5-star/extremely highly recruited 4-star DT are on that defensive line. Every major school in the country made them offers. They all play like 3-stars.

 

[landscapingvol]

First, I want to say I use to be very critical about Shoop. I consider myself slightly intelligent when it comes to football, but I am no genius by any means. My dad has taught me over the years a lot about the game more than just the final score.

I see a lot of people on here and other social media that complain about Shoop being the problem and there is a few things that I want too point out. I am not going to talk about every game because this thread would be 54835824 words long.

If you didn't watch the Georgia game and heard the score 41-0 you would say, "Jeez did Tennessee put a defense on the field?" If you actually look at it though it wasn't our defense that made it 41-0.

Lets start with the first play of the game, we throw a pick on our 27 yard line. So, the offense has already dug the defense in a hole and Georgia only has to go 27 yards. They come out and run 3 plays for only a total of 7 yards and get the field goal. Good defensive stand.

Georgia kicks it off and we go 3 plays for a total of 1 yard and we punt. Georgia fields the punt and their first play on that drive Vickers gets a sack and they go 3 plays for 0 yards and punt. Good defensive stand.

We field the punt and yet again go 3 plays for a total of 3 yards and punt. Georgia gets a good punt return for 18 yards and puts them about at the 50. This drive we have them on 3rd and 11 and they complete a pass to Godwin and Warrior forces a fumble that they recover and eventually get the TD on this drive. How wore out do you think the defense was by this time because our offense couldn't give them more than a 3 play break?

They kickoff to us and we run 7 plays for 28 yards and punt for a touch back. Our defense comes out and holds them yet again for 3 plays and only 5 yards gained and force them to punt. We field the punt and go 3 plays for only 7 yards and have to punt again.

2 plays into this Georgia drive Martin gets an interception for us on the Georgia 27. We come out with a great scoring opportunity only down 10-0 and 2 plays into our drive we fumble and Georgia recovers. By this time our defense has given us so many opportunities it is unreal that we haven't put 1 point on the board.

Even after Georgia gets the fumble our defense holds them to 3 plays for 0 yards and force the punt. Yet again our offense comes out and runs 3 plays for a total of 4 yards and has too punt.

The next Georgia drive is where you can start to see the defense is getting tired. They go 11 plays for 87 yards and a touchdown.

They kickoff to us and the first play of our drive is an interception and Reed returns it for 34 yards to our 26 yard line. Here we go again defense has to come out and stop them from going only 26 yards with virtually no breather.

Then it's halftime and I am not going into as much detail on the second half because this is getting so long, but the last two touchdowns they had they only had to go a combined 81 yards. So it is like they basically started on the 40.5 Tennessee yard line those two drives. We also made them punt two more times in the second half. We lost a fumble and had to punt 3 more times in the second half.

With all that said if you are still here reading this Shoop's defense isn't that bad. It's our offense that keeps digging us in holes.

Shoop isn't the problem, the offense is.

When he devises a defense that can stop the jet sweep for UMass then I will agree with that sentiment but as of now the offense and the defense both suck equally. The offense wasn't a problem last year and the defense could not get off of the field.