Why is there such a quarrel with Christianity today?

#3,201
#3,201
T-TownVol said:
it is an article posted on VN as "possible proof" of evolution being the reason for life.....the experiment set out with a goal in mind and created that result with highly controlled/specifically chosen conditions and elements.....

just pointing out that both sides do it.....and I don't blame them
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If you are talking about the experiment article, not sure what it has to do with the separate theory of evolution....check, actually I am sure, it has nothing to do with it.

In my opinion, all these attempts at contorting logic and using science to prove the existence of God speaks volumes. In deep dark places you don't want to talk about it gives comfort to try and make some sort of rational sense of the whole thing instead of just saying you believe in magic, supernatural, faith or whatever other reason there really is to believe all this. There is a need for the comfort of knowing there is a God and simultaneously the need for knowing it the way you know everything else. But you simply can't have your cake and eat it too. Not a dig at anyone in particular on here and certainly not you T-Town, just an observation and just my opinion, of course.
 
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#3,203
#3,203
rjd970 said:
If you are talking about the experiment article, not sure what it has to do with the separate theory of evolution....check, actually I am sure, it has nothing to do with it.

In my opinion, all these attempts at contorting logic and using science to prove the existence of God speaks volumes. In deep dark places you don't want to talk about it gives comfort to try and make some sort of rational sense of the whole thing instead of just saying you believe in magic, supernatural, faith or whatever other reason there really is to believe all this. There is a need for the comfort of knowing there is a God and simultaneously the need for knowing it the way you know everything else. But you simply can't have your cake and eat it too. Not a dig at anyone in particular on here and certainly not you T-Town, just an observation and just my opinion, of course.
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I forget the OP of the article, but it was posted on VN to say that life began from nothing and here is "proof"

I respect everyone's opinion and enjoy reading the comments.....most of the time I am just poking the bear to get a reaction.....you guys are too easily "brought to arms"........:hi:
 
#3,206
#3,206
Pretending there isn't a rift between our modern understanding of science and the beliefs of Christianity by listing Christian scientists from hundreds of years ago isn't a great tactic. Currently we have a near consensus(~97-99%) in the scientific community regarding evolution(macro, and micro, as they are one in the same). That number is far more compelling than the prominence of Christian scientists from eras where almost all learned men from those areas were Christians.
 
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#3,207
#3,207
Orangedogsrule said:
So you have faith in the Miller-Urey debacle, huh?


Reasons To Believe : Origin-of-Life Experiment: Going from Bad to Worse

Consider all things. Hold fast to what is true.

See what science does?

Oh, and you need to back peddle, real fast, and find some current Miller-Urey type experiment that was done with "tests and experiments" that were designed to produce those aminos where the "atmosphere" is truly the same as the earth had, and the "primordial soup" ...well, shouldn't it also be what existed then? Neither one being the imaginings, however good the "educated guess" of the designer of the experiment may be, it's still guessing right now. In the future, maybe geologists will find some rock that actually preserved a bubble of that atmosphere, but, similar to Heisenberg's electron, the act of preservation over millinia surely will change the outcome of analysis.

Bottom line, don't bring in the failed, and scientifically shown to be failures, Miller-Urey experiments and expect folk to believe you really KNOW what you're saying is true. It's apparently all based on your FAITH in science. Evidently, a misplaced faoth for the time being.
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Primordial Soup's On: Scientists Repeat Evolution's Most Famous Experiment - Scientific American

Chemistry of Life: An Old Experiment Offers New Insights | Amino Acids & Urey-Miller Experiment & Primordial Earth

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#3,208
#3,208
I find it ironic that many of you argue that scientists manipulate data to fit their agenda, yet some of you provide links from religious scientists who clearly want to fit their own agenda (in a much more blatantly obvious way I might add).
 
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#3,210
#3,210
MaxamusXIII said:
Kinda like the way liberals think Fox News is biased and conservatives think CNN is biased.

Everyone has an agenda.
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Scientific conclusions don't equal intent.

A scientist can't make the claims that a , insert religion here, can. He would get eaten alive by his fellow scientists.
 
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#3,211
#3,211
Septic said:
This wan't directed at me but I'll throw my opinion in.

Evil is a concept that is as subjective as it is irrelevant. The cosmos doesn't have an opinion of 'evil', the cosmos just is.

It's humans who have given arbitrary terms and definitions to personal beliefs like 'sin' and 'salvation'. One can claim it was divinely inspired but that's just feels... Why would a god be necessary to 'define' its (evils) opposite? Opposite of what? Some peoples gods call on it's followers to commit what other people would consider "evil". Who's right? Who's wrong?

What you're asking isn't possible to answer due to the subjectivity of the terms you're using.
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Respond or not at your pleasure. It's all kind of bs.

So, it's all just moral relativism to you?
 
#3,213
#3,213
jvol1 said:
Whether God is an invention of man or not, religious morality very much underlies our society's morality.
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I would argue that religious morality was simply a restating of rules which had evolved over the time prior to the bible. Such rules had the benefit of keeping a societal order.

I will grant you that religion created the human's sense of guilt for violating said rules.
 
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#3,214
#3,214
ClearwaterVol said:
I would argue that religious morality was simply a restating of rules which had evolved over the time prior to the bible. Such rules had the benefit of keeping a societal order.

I will grant you that religion created the human's sense of guilt for violating said rules.
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From the very first man and woman......
 
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#3,216
#3,216
jvol1 said:
Respond or not at your pleasure. It's all kind of bs.

So, it's all just moral relativism to you?
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The Hobbesian atheist moral universe is the very opposite of relativist. It sees our most fundamental fear to be death. Violent death, more specifically. As such, morality, whether it be by law or by civic relationships outside the law (but all still a part of the social contract) is developed as a necessity to avoid the ultimate catastrophe of our own violent demise. In turn, we have to give up some of our freedoms, but what freedoms we give up are determined by how well doing so will help us all avoid violent encounter.

While neither Hobbes nor I can speak for all atheists, there is an atheist morality that is by no means relativist. It is rooted directly in human biology and psychology.
 
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#3,217
#3,217
jvol1 said:
Respond or not at your pleasure. It's all kind of bs.

So, it's all just moral relativism to you?
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Not necessarily. But metaethical moral relativists have a place at the table. People see different things based on where they sit.
 
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#3,218
#3,218
ClearwaterVol said:
I would argue that religious morality was simply a restating of rules which had evolved over the time prior to the bible. Such rules had the benefit of keeping a societal order.

I will grant you that religion created the human's sense of guilt for violating said rules.
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Well stated. Self preservation is an excellent reason to treat others the way you would want to be treated.
 
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#3,219
#3,219
Septic said:
Well stated. Self preservation is an excellent reason to treat others the way you would want to be treated.
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For me, that's really all morality is about: completely non-altruistic self-preservation. We can attempt to doctor it in flowery language about love and sacrifice, but that's all illusion and deception. I know it offends some religious people when you say such, but no one can convince me that anything other than self-preservation (and via the self's extension, the preservation of those close to and important to the self) motivates the vast majority of religious people who believe in an afterlife.

The self is all we have known and will ever know, and I can't fault anyone for wanting to preserve it.
 
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#3,220
#3,220
volprof said:
For me, that's really all morality is about: completely non-altruistic self-preservation. We can attempt to doctor it in flowery language about love and sacrifice, but that's all illusion and deception. I know it offends some religious people when you say such, but no one can convince me that anything other than self-preservation (and via the self's extension, the preservation of those close to and important to the self) motivates the vast majority of religious people who believe in an afterlife.

The self is all we have known and will ever know, and I can't fault anyone for wanting to preserve it.
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True Christianity...people who live and breathe Jesus..is all about death of self. Denying self. Worldly yhoughts, desires, emotions ...putting the will of God ahead of one's own will 24 hours a day. Very few even attempt this. Fewer still succeed. Those who do have power through God that most couldn't fathom. Mock me if you will, what I say is true.
 
#3,221
#3,221
marcusluvsvols said:
True Christianity...people who live and breathe Jesus..is all about death of self. Denying self. Worldly yhoughts, desires, emotions ...putting the will of God ahead of one's own will 24 hours a day. Very few even attempt this. Fewer still succeed. Those who do have power through God that most couldn't fathom. Mock me if you will, what I say is true.
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how are you defining power?
 
#3,223
#3,223
They work miracles alright. I saw one preacher shout and grope and old lady in a wheelchair and she got up and walked!

Well, then he asked for money and the power of Christ compelled me.
 
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#3,225
#3,225
marcusluvsvols said:
The power to work modern day miracles, do things that science and popular thought as well as even logic deem impossible. God can and does do absolutely anything. It happens every day. Most are oblivious.
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You mean like the "miracles" performed by Mother Teresa? Whom did far less for the poor than she is given credit for doing.
 
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