Why is there such a quarrel with Christianity today?

#2,828
#2,828
Roustabout said:
God isn't composed of parts.

It isnt a matter of free will. Saying God's plans or God's will is our anthropomorphic way of dealing with His sovereign mind. It's kind of like saying the sun doesn't have the free will to stop shining. Saying God cant change His mind just doesn't apply anymore than measuring the angles of a circle.
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So God has no free will.
 
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#2,832
#2,832
Roustabout said:
Umkay. Guess that is why it is experiencing a resurgence. Your glib comments about it every time it comes up are telling.
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Trying to understand what you see on divine simplicity that the Christian community, theologians, and philosophers of the modern era don't see.
 
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#2,835
#2,835
Roustabout said:
Great! You've made up your mind. Stop asking me questions as if you give a ****.
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Of course I have an opinion of it given my current understanding. I'm always open to having a different understanding. If I remember correctly, I'm pretty much the only poster to go through your friend's book.
 
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#2,836
#2,836
Sorry, but your questions betray something else. I just stated God isn't composed of parts, and you immediately ask a question that would essentially require me to accept that he is composed of parts. Now that speaks to a couple of possibilities. Either you are ignorant of the explanations from classical theology about the will of God (which you've claimed not to be) or you assume you can trip up your interlocutor with loaded questions. Did u stop beating your wife? Neither portray someone who is sincere or open.

As I recall your objections were prejudicial much as you've displayed here, such as Aristotle thought of it before Aquinas, or, it's no longer popular, or, it's BS. Again, none portray a sincere or open mind. I can assure you Thomist natural theology is making a big come back among theologians. (But, it's popularity or decline doesn't determine it's veracity.)
 
#2,838
#2,838
Roustabout said:
Sorry, but your questions betray something else. I just stated God isn't composed of parts, and you immediately ask a question that would essentially require me to accept that he is composed of parts. Now that speaks to a couple of possibilities. Either you are ignorant of the explanations from classical theology about the will of God (which you've claimed not to be) or you assume you can trip up your interlocutor with loaded questions. Did u stop beating your wife? Neither portray someone who is sincere or open.
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My comments were in relation to free will. You stated that God can't change his mind, is akin to the Sun having to shine (determinism), and doesn't choose options/possibilities. That isn't free will.

Roustabout said:
As I recall your objections were prejudicial much as you've displayed here, such as Aristotle thought of it before Aquinas, or, it's no longer popular, or, it's BS. Again, none portray a sincere or open mind. I can assure you Thomist natural theology is making a big come back among theologians. (But, it's popularity or decline doesn't determine it's veracity.)
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You are conflating having an opinion with not having an open mind. I constantly read books which challenge my current understanding and pick the brains of people who disagree with me. Life is an morphosis dictated via new experiences.
 
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#2,839
#2,839
PKT_VOL said:
My comments were in relation to free will. You stated that God can't change his mind, is akin to the Sun having to shine (determinism), and doesn't choose options/possibilities. That isn't free will.



You are conflating having an opinion with not having an open mind. I constantly read books which challenge my current understanding and pick the brains of people who disagree with me. Life is an morphosis dictated via new experiences.
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It would be better stated that God doesn't change. His essence and existence are the same. And since He is pure actuality, there is no potentiality is God. He exist a se and is not contingent. Again, we over anthropomorphize god as if His mind is some component of His being. So, God's not choosing isn't a matter of Him lacking some ability, which is what you are trying to imply.

Our need to choose is due to our lack of self sufficiency and dependence on things external to ourselves. So God not sharing in our privation does not result in His lacking some ability.
 
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#2,840
#2,840
Roustabout said:
It would be better stated that God doesn't change. His essence and existence are the same. And since He is pure actuality, there is no potentiality is God. He exist a se and is not contingent. Again, we over anthropomorphize god as if His mind is some component of His being. So, God's not choosing isn't a matter of Him lacking some ability, which is what you are trying to imply.
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Do you think God has free will? If so, how does it work with what you have outlined above?

Roustabout said:
Our need to choose is due to our lack of self sufficiency and dependence on things external to ourselves. So God not sharing in our privation does not result in His lacking some ability.
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I don't see how this follows. Are you saying that if we didn't need water, food, shelter, warmth, etc. as a biological being (facticity) that our free will (for-itself) would disappear?
 
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#2,841
#2,841
PKT_VOL said:
Do you think God has free will? If so, how does it work with what you have outlined above?



I don't see how this follows. Are you saying that if we didn't need water, food, shelter, warmth, etc. as a biological being (facticity) that our free will (for-itself) would disappear?
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Depends.
Define free. Free from or free to. I see these equivocated.
Are you saying free is the ability to act apart from one's nature? Or, free will is the ability to act within your power according to your nature?
 
#2,842
#2,842
Roustabout said:
Depends.
Define free. Free from or free to. I see these equivocated.
Are you saying free is the ability to act apart from one's nature? Or, free will is the ability to act within your power according to your nature?
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Utterly free to choose (then act) between two or more options/possibilities.
 
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#2,845
#2,845
PKT_VOL said:
One would think so, Gramps.
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I just knew you would agree with that post. :crazy:

I have always enjoy reading your postings PKT. As you know we don't agree on this topic but I like the way you present your opinions. They are always well thought out and presented in a respectable way. You sir are a good solid poster.

:hi:
 
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#2,846
#2,846
Gramps said:
I just knew you would agree with that post. :crazy:

I have always enjoy reading your postings PKT. As you know we don't agree on this topic but I like the way you present your opinions. They are always well thought out and presented in a respectable way. You sir are a good solid poster.

:hi:
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Thank you for the kind words, Gramps.

The feeling is certainly mutual. Hope you and your loved ones are doing well. :hi:
 
#2,847
#2,847
PKT_VOL said:
Utterly free to choose (then act) between two or more options/possibilities.
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Right back where we were. As you've presented the question, no. I'm again supposed to assume something about God (potentiality), which contradicts my position, in order to answer your question?

I've already answered. Rewording the question doesn't change that. You are asking as if it is a deficiency, which I've already addressed. As if God was pondering this way over that, and since he chose this as opposed to that then there is something within God that is not actualized; not to mention that he is also now contingent since his own being is now tied to these choices.
 
#2,848
#2,848
Roustabout said:
Right back where we were. As you've presented the question, no. I'm again supposed to assume something about God (potentiality), which contradicts my position, in order to answer your question?

I've already answered. Rewording the question doesn't change that. You are asking as if it is a deficiency, which I've already addressed. As if God was pondering this way over that, and since he chose this as opposed to that then there is something within God that is not actualized; not to mention that he is also now contingent since his own being is now tied to these choices.
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That wasn't so hard. It was a simple question. Now, we can pivot to the secondary issues which you seem more concerned about; deficiency, etc.

How do you square the Bible with a God who has no free will? Things that jump out: creation, begetting of Jesus, man made in God's image, punishment (contingency), dealing with man's free will (contingency), etc.
 
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#2,849
#2,849
PKT_VOL said:
That wasn't so hard. It was a simple question. Now, we can pivot to the secondary issues which you seem more concerned about; deficiency, etc.

How do you square the Bible with a God who has no free will? Things that jump out: creation, begetting of Jesus, man made in God's image, punishment (contingency), dealing with man's free will (contingency), etc.
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It wasn't simple. It was loaded. I didn't say God didn't have free will. I said, based on your question, no. And then pointed out the flaw in your question, which you've twice ignored. Another trait of yours that has led me to end discussions with you. What's the worry though, it's all an illusion any hoot.
Firther, I doubt we're going to break any new ground on the subject. Hypo static union, the incarnation, man's free will have centuries of debate and discission.
 
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#2,850
#2,850
Will It Go Round in Circles
Billy Preston
I've got a song, I ain't got no melody
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends
I've got a song, I ain't got no melody
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends
Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
I've got a story, I ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while
I've got a story, I ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while
Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
I've got a dance, I ain't got no steps, no
I'm gonna let the music move me around
I've got a dance, I ain't got no steps
I'ma gonna let the music move me around
 
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