Why is there such a quarrel with Christianity today?

#2,104
#2,104
Roustabout said:
These last pages seem lime a semantics dance. Accepting something and comprehending are different. Although, i grant, how one is using the word makes all the difference. I accept that i am composed of billions of microscopic factories (cells), but no I don't REALLY comprehend this. And, I would say I have more than a layman's understanding of the biology.

I apprehend that there are invisible waves flying all around me, some carrying music, communication, data, and even my favorite TV show, but do I really comprehend? Sure I understand the basic science of radio waves and that when I turn on my radio, tv and computer and that data is there, and that it was broadcast from a transmitter way out there.

Sure, I understand that cosmic background radiation, red shift and Einstein's theory of general relativity point towards a finite universe. But do I really comprehend this in its actual completeness? Hell no.

And then there is the creator of all this. Hmmmm.
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I would state that you have to comprehend such, even only in so far as you think/understand such. It doesn't necessarily mean that you think/conscious of it regularly.

If it helps, think of it as positivity. If you state something positively, you have to have some comprehension (even if it is wrong) of what you are claiming.

To be honest, this is quite periphery. The deeper issue here is the structure and backbone of theology. Theology is about using logic and reason to comprehend and talk intelligibly about God. For that to even be possible, God has to be comprehensible, such comprehension has to be rooted in logic and reason, and God has to be bound by logic/reason. If not, theology is a fruitless exercise and understanding God devolves into total mysticism.
 
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#2,105
#2,105
Orange_Crush said:
You and I have had similar conversations, but I'll briefly answer each question.

I would say that comprehension of God can include logic/reasoning. I would say that God is in no way bound by logic/reasoning since to say that He is bound by logic/reasoning is to say that He is bound by our ability to think about Him.



So, no, I would say that God is not bound by logic/reasoning any more than you are bound by my, or anyone else's, ability to formulate thoughts or premises about you. You exist independently from people's perceptions of you. (At least, I believe that you do, even though you may disagree. :p )

You seem to me to be trying to set up an excluded middle. Either one can comprehend all of God, or God is incomprehensible/unknowable. In actuality, there are varying degrees of comprehension and we can develop workable relationships with things even if we do not fully comprehend them. i.e. I drove to work this morning without a full comprehension of the internal combustion engine and electronics that allowed me to operate the vehicle.

If I misunderstood your point--or the point that you were building to--then I apologize.
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Premises are very different than logic and reason. It is the logic and reason that God must be bound by if we are to speak intellectually about it.

In other words, God can't be contradictory.

See my post to Roustabout about the rest.
 
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#2,106
#2,106
PKT_VOL said:
Premises are very different than logic and reason. It is the logic and reason that God must be bound by if we are to speak intellectually about it.

In other words, God can't be contradictory.

See my post to Roustabout about the rest.
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Whose logic and whose reason must God be bound by? Yours? Mine?
 
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#2,108
#2,108
PKT_VOL said:
Premises are very different than logic and reason. It is the logic and reason that God must be bound by if we are to speak intellectually about it.

In other words, God can't be contradictory.

See my post to Roustabout about the rest.
Click to expand...

Ah... I guess we were inadvertently operating in an equivocation. I was operating from the definition of "logic/reason" that I quoted, which is basically our thoughts/reasoning on any given subject. For instance, many in the East have a reasoning that sees no problems with contradiction. That's their logic/reasoning.

If you are boiling your meaning down to "non-contradiction", then I would agree with you, not bringing up my subtle caveats on the subject.
 
#2,109
#2,109
PKT_VOL said:
I would state that you have to comprehend such, even only in so far as you think/understand such. It doesn't necessarily mean that you think/conscious of it regularly.

If it helps, think of it as positivity. If you state something positively, you have to have some comprehension (even if it is wrong) of what you are claiming.

To be honest, this is quite periphery. The deeper issue here is the structure and backbone of theology. Theology is about using logic and reason to comprehend and talk intelligibly about God. For that to even be possible, God has to be comprehensible, such comprehension has to be rooted in logic and reason, and God has to be bound by logic/reason. If not, theology is a fruitless exercise and understanding God devolves into total mysticism.
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As I said, it sounds more like semantics in how we're using the terms.

Sure, we can use logic and reason to ascertain certain things about god, but I'd say when we are on the other side of eternity we'll laugh at just how little we know.
But no, i don't think God is bound by logic in the way you seem to imply. If He is the logos then He is being itself and thus the source of logic.
 
#2,110
#2,110
Roustabout said:
As I said, it sounds more like semantics in how we're using the terms.

Sure, we can use logic and reason to ascertain certain things about god, but I'd say when we are on the other side of eternity we'll laugh at just how little we know.
But no, i don't think God is bound by logic in the way you seem to imply. If He is the logos then He is being itself and thus the source of logic.
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And that was my caveat. :hi:
 
#2,111
#2,111
Roustabout said:
Yea!! MEMES!!!
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#2,112
#2,112
PKT_VOL said:
It is the logic and reason that God must be bound by if we are to speak intellectually about it.
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I think this statement is the root of all the different religions in the world. Man's interpretation of God is where all the denominations come from.

"Mind of a child" guys.....mind of a child.
 
#2,114
#2,114
T-TownVol said:
Beer or regular?
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Never understood beer pong. Why would anyone want to achieve feats of hand eye coordination to gain access to beer that's been sitting there getting warm? Just drink the damn beer and fornicate, or something else fun.
 
#2,115
#2,115
apevol said:
Never understood beer pong. Why would anyone want to achieve feats of hand eye coordination to gain access to beer that's been sitting there getting warm? Just drink the damn beer and fornicate, or something else fun.
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Ding...Ding...Ding.....
 
#2,117
#2,117
Orange_Crush said:
Ah... I guess we were inadvertently operating in an equivocation. I was operating from the definition of "logic/reason" that I quoted, which is basically our thoughts/reasoning on any given subject. For instance, many in the East have a reasoning that sees no problems with contradiction. That's their logic/reasoning.

If you are boiling your meaning down to "non-contradiction", then I would agree with you, not bringing up my subtle caveats on the subject.
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Wow, we agree :)
 
#2,119
#2,119
Roustabout said:
As I said, it sounds more like semantics in how we're using the terms.

Sure, we can use logic and reason to ascertain certain things about god, but I'd say when we are on the other side of eternity we'll laugh at just how little we know.
But no, i don't think God is bound by logic in the way you seem to imply. If He is the logos then He is being itself and thus the source of logic.
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If you mean by "logos" the rules/law of logic, why would God not be bound by them? If such is God's being, how could he contradict his being?
 
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#2,120
#2,120
T-TownVol said:
I think this statement is the root of all the different religions in the world. Man's interpretation of God is where all the denominations come from.

"Mind of a child" guys.....mind of a child.
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The differences are antecedent to that concept; if (assuming) they even accept such a concept in the first place.
 
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#2,121
#2,121
PKT_VOL said:
If you mean by "logos" the rules/law of logic, why would God not be bound by them? If such is God's being, how could he contradict his being?
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He would not contradict His being. Im sim0ly saying the laws of logic are not external to God.
 
#2,124
#2,124
Roustabout said:
He would not contradict His being. Im sim0ly saying the laws of logic are not external to God.
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Whether they are internal or external is irrelevant to point. That is matter of theology. The concept at hand underpins and provides the structure for theology where those subsequent theological differences can take root.
 
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