Why is there such a quarrel with Christianity today?

#226
#226
MercyPercy said:
This is just great. I can say whatever I want and as long as there's no hard evidence to counter it, well hell, it's equally plausible to be true or false. I'm glad that's not actually how scholastic pursuit works.

Lack of evidence is not evidence. However, to use that to claim one belief is just as likely as another is simply wrong. I can claim that 4,000 years ago, my ancestors were enslaved by the lizard people. Oh, there's no evidence for my claim, but there isn't any hard evidence it didn't happen either. Therefore, my claim holds equal weight as yours that it didn't happen.

Them mental gymnastics doe.
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Gymnastics are good for ya, Merce.
 
#227
#227
apevol said:
Gymnastics are good for ya, Merce.
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At one point in my life I was athletically gifted enough to do a backflip, but I busted my ass trying and got skeert.

I'll still do a cartwheel if someone challenges me to some drunk olympics. Let the games begin!
 
#228
#228
Vol8188 said:
Yet outside of that clearly biased source, not a shred of evidence
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Ipuwer Papyrus:

Seems to describe many of the plagues of the Exodus.

The Ten Plagues - Live From Egypt « Pesach « Ohr Somayach

Counter-thought on the Ipuwer Papyrus:

The Admonitions of Ipuwer

Fringe historians often compare the content of this papyrus with Exodus, the second book of the Bible [1]. Similarities between Egyptian texts and the Bible are easily found, and it is reasonable to assume Egyptian influence on the Hebrews, given their at times close contacts. But to conclude from such parallelisms that the Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt at the time of the Exodus, requires a leap of faith not everybody is willing to make.
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#229
#229
volprof said:
Oh, that Satan! Always tricking us. I guarantee you he even put the dinosaur's bones here to trick us too.
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Speaking of dinosaurs... What is the religious (Christian, Islamic, Jewish, whatever) explanation of these creatures? I know that many people where I live are absolutely certain that Earth is only 6,000 years old. I've read that 20 ft carnivore bones have been found in Saudi Arabia, among other species. I feel like something like that would be mentioned as quite a hazard if it existed during this time rather than 70 million years ago?
 
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#230
#230
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
Speaking of dinosaurs... What is the religious (Christian, Islamic, Jewish, whatever) explanation of these creatures? I know that many people where I live are absolutely certain that Earth is only 6,000 years old. I've read that 20 ft carnivore bones have been found in Saudi Arabia, among other species. I feel like something like that would be mentioned as quite a hazard if it existed during this time rather than 70 million years ago?
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Ken Ham's creation museum has the answers you seek.
 
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#231
#231
MercyPercy said:
At one point in my life I was athletically gifted enough to do a backflip, but I busted my ass trying and got skeert.

I'll still do a cartwheel if someone challenges me to some drunk olympics. Let the games begin!
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I challenge you to a sober contest. Rules and objectives of contest defined by Gramps, Grandvol,Top, and Gavol.
 
#232
#232
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
Speaking of dinosaurs... What is the religious (Christian, Islamic, Jewish, whatever) explanation of these creatures? I know that many people where I live are absolutely certain that Earth is only 6,000 years old. I've read that 20 ft carnivore bones have been found in Saudi Arabia, among other species. I feel like something like that would be mentioned as quite a hazard if it existed during this time rather than 70 million years ago?
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Just out of curiosity, do you anyone personally who believes the Earth is only 6000 years old?
 
#234
#234
volfan_89 said:
Truth is, there's not much prove for anything that happened in the bible. No proof of a world wide flood, no proof of Sodom and Gomorrah, no proof the Israelites were in Egypt, no real proof Jesus ever existed (outside of the bible there's isn't much first hand account of him existing). Christianity is about faith, grace and love and personal experience.
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It is ultimately about faith, and, as I understand religion (at least Christianity and Islam), it is useless without faith. Otherwise, it is merely slavery. Faith means that you honor even despite not knowing.

I'm not sure why some people (I'm not referring to anyone here in particular) have to prove that this (Biblical event) happened or that (another Biblical event) happened to convince themselves of the validity of their faith. Isn't faith by its very nature the condition of not knowing but committing oneself nonetheless?

I just brought up the ancient Hebrews in Egypt account simply because it seemed pertinent to any discussion of whether or not the Jesus account is potentially fabricated or co-opted from other cultural narratives. Whether the ancient Hebrews were or were not in Egypt makes no difference to me. It could be discovered definitively tomorrow that they were in fact enslaved in ancient Egypt, and it would affect me none.
 
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#235
#235
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
Speaking of dinosaurs... What is the religious (Christian, Islamic, Jewish, whatever) explanation of these creatures? I know that many people where I live are absolutely certain that Earth is only 6,000 years old. I've read that 20 ft carnivore bones have been found in Saudi Arabia, among other species. I feel like something like that would be mentioned as quite a hazard if it existed during this time rather than 70 million years ago?
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I think the more interesting implication of fossils(not just dinosaurs) revolves around their support for evolution, rather than the 6,000 year old earth stuff. That's targeting the low hanging fruit.

The evidence is clear that all animals have not existed in their current forms since the beginning of time(one religious claim I've seen made). For example, we can say with certainty that cows did not exist in the time of the dinosaurs. One must hold a compromise between the strict interpretation and the reality of science if they want to be taken seriously here. So, god didn't make the dinosaurs and the cows at the same time. We'll chalk that up to poor communication. Then what? Every few million years he changes animals ever so slightly to adapt to their environments when, as living organisms, they are demonstrably capable of doing that on their own? That doesn't sound so convincing either, but that's pretty much what intelligent design is saying. But what it also is, of course, is a further concession that life does change greatly over time, which I know doesn't resonate well with people who don't want to think we share a relatively recent(on a geological time scale) common ancestry with primates.

A more tenable version of ID pseudoscience would go more like "god created life with the function to adapt and evolve based on its environment" rather than god is literally micromanaging the genome every single time a pair on insects bang. Sure, there's no real evidence for it, but at least it acknowledges evolution, while still being able to call itself ID(because god would have designed these functions of life). It might not be ID in spirit, but ID in its current form is dumb as hell anyway so that shouldn't be a problem. :)

If I were in their boat, I'd honestly just go with "god created the universe and the earth with the specific elements and requirements necessary for life. Life evolved on earth and god recognized that the ape men were going to be the top dogs and began meddling with their affairs after they became the dominant species."

King Percy Bible.
 
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#239
#239
MercyPercy said:
I think the more interesting implication of fossils(not just dinosaurs) revolves around their support for evolution, rather than the 6,000 year old earth stuff. That's targeting the low hanging fruit.

The evidence is clear that all animals have not existed in their current forms since the beginning of time(one religious claim I've seen made). For example, we can say with certainty that cows did not exist in the time of the dinosaurs. One must hold a compromise between the strict interpretation and the reality of science if they want to be taken seriously here. So, god didn't make the dinosaurs and the cows at the same time. We'll chalk that up to poor communication. Then what? Every few million years he changes animals ever so slightly to adapt to their environments when, as living organisms, they are demonstrably capable of doing that on their own? That doesn't sound so convincing either, but that's pretty much what intelligent design is saying. But what it also is, of course, is a further concession that life does change greatly over time, which I know doesn't resonate well with people who don't want to think we share a relatively recent(on a geological time scale) common ancestry with primates.

A more tenable version of ID pseudoscience would go more like "god created life with the function to adapt and evolve based on its environment" rather than god is literally micromanaging the genome every single time a pair on insects bang. Sure, there's no real evidence for it, but at least it acknowledges evolution, while still being able to call itself ID(because god would have designed these functions of life). It might not be ID in spirit, but ID in its current form is dumb as hell anyway so that shouldn't be a problem. :)

If I were in their boat, I'd honestly just go with "god created the universe and the earth with the specific elements and requirements necessary for life. Life evolved on earth and god recognized that the ape men were going to be the top dogs and began meddling with their affairs after they became the dominant species."

King Percy Bible.
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Evolution, and their unwillingness to accept its possibility, are definite factors, but I know entire churches of folk (of various denominations) that believe the dinosaurs were on Earth during the Old Testament. They've pointed out a verse about a long neck creature, but I can't recall the verse. Even so, I feel like creatures the size of those found in the Middle East would be mentioned more than that, considering they'd likely be at the top of the food chain when man only had sling shots, swords, and spears to defend themselves.
 
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#240
#240
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
Evolution, and their unwillingness to accept its possibility, are definite factors, but I know entire churches of folk (of various denominations) that believe the dinosaurs were on Earth during the Old Testament. They've pointed out a verse about a long neck creature, but I can't recall the verse. Even so, I feel like creatures the size of those found in the Middle East would be mentioned more than that, considering they'd likely be at the top of the food chain when man only had sling shots, swords, and spears to defend themselves.
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Oh, I know they exist. I just don't think many of them post here, or even if they did, they probably wouldn't partake in the discussion(as I have yet to see anyone here do such).
 
#241
#241
MercyPercy said:
Oh, I know they exist. I just don't think many of them post here, or even if they did, they probably wouldn't partake in the discussion(as I have yet to see anyone here do such).
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Oh okay I see what you mean. Yeah, I haven't seen anyone here say anything about it. I'd be interested in hearing what they had to say though.
 
#243
#243
My best guess for dinosaurs in relation to the Bible involves the 7 days of creation. God does not go by the same rules of time as we do. Who knows how long the 7 days actually were, 7 is a symbolic number in the Bible. It's God's number, it means complete and perfect.

Perhaps part of the time God was using to create the world, he also spent letting it develop. He created all manners of life, and let them run their course, dinosaurs included. When he saw his creation was ready for man, he introduced Adam and Eve to it.

I think the answer to all this will be revealed to us after we die, and we will realize how much we truly didn't know about the world. I could be way off base about all this, but that's my best guess.

Worst case scenario I can always pull the science cop-out..... "We know there's proof, we just haven't discovered it yet."
 
#244
#244
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
Evolution, and their unwillingness to accept its possibility, are definite factors, but I know entire churches of folk (of various denominations) that believe the dinosaurs were on Earth during the Old Testament. They've pointed out a verse about a long neck creature, but I can't recall the verse. Even so, I feel like creatures the size of those found in the Middle East would be mentioned more than that, considering they'd likely be at the top of the food chain when man only had sling shots, swords, and spears to defend themselves.
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Animals with long necks tend to be docile.
 
#245
#245
apevol said:
Animals with long necks tend to be docile.
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Well yeah, but I was referring to this 20 ft carnivore I mentioned earlier that was discovered in Saudi Arabia, more so than the one possible piece of evidence found in the scripture.
 

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#246
#246
chatt-townVOL said:
My best guess for dinosaurs in relation to the Bible involves the 7 days of creation. God does not go by the same rules of time as we do. Who knows how long the 7 days actually were, 7 is a symbolic number in the Bible. It's God's number, it means complete and perfect.

Perhaps part of the time God was using to create the world, he also spent letting it develop. He created all manners of life, and let them run their course, dinosaurs included. When he saw his creation was ready for man, he introduced Adam and Eve to it.

I think the answer to all this will be revealed to us after we die, and we will realize how much we truly didn't know about the world. I could be way off base about all this, but that's my best guess.

Worst case scenario I can always pull the science cop-out..... "We know there's proof, we just haven't discovered it yet."
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That's definitely the best of the theories I've heard. I'm no scientist, but 6,000 Earth years seems far fetched. If a God does exist, their sense of time being different than ours would make more sense. One day could equal 1 billion years for us, for eample?
 
#247
#247
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
That's definitely the best of the theories I've heard. I'm no scientist, but 6,000 Earth years seems far fetched. If a God does exist, their sense of time being different than ours would make more sense. One day could equal 1 billion years for us, for eample?
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It's almost as if the authors of the book wrote it in some sort of attempt to help an Iron Age people understand the world.
 
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#248
#248
G0 BIG 0RANGE said:
That's definitely the best of the theories I've heard. I'm no scientist, but 6,000 Earth years seems far fetched. If a God does exist, their sense of time being different than ours would make more sense. One day could equal 1 billion years for us, for eample?
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2 Peter 3:8

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

As for the 6,000 year old Earth thing, I've never understood it. I don't know where anyone is getting that from. Saying the Earth is 6,000 years old, and saying it's 600,000,000,000,000,000 years old makes no difference to me. I have no idea how old the Earth is, and none of the age of Earth theories contradict the Bible.

I like Ken Ham. I agree with a LOT of what he says, but he takes that one over the top. He doesn't know how old our planet is, and I think he needs to understand he's not suddenly an atheist for admitting that.
 
#249
#249
chatt-townVOL said:
I like Ken Ham. I agree with a LOT of what he says, but he takes that one over the top. He doesn't know how old our planet is, and I think he needs to understand he's not suddenly an atheist for admitting that.
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This is one thing I don't understand about some religious people - that they have to factually prove their beliefs and the Bible. Doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't we all just be rational adults and admit the Bible largely for what it is: a book written in a specific cultural context for a specific cultural group. Just because the creation story may or may not be a way for pre-scientific peoples to narrate scientific things doesn't mean that word and message of Jesus Christ is necessarily weakened.
 
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