Why is there such a quarrel with Christianity today?

[marcusluvsvols]

We all are sinners and fail every day.

I wrestle with demons that destroy men everyday. It's my thorn.if it weren't for prayer I would never make it.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Just because she's an atheist doesn't mean she vehemently defends the non-existence of a God. Most atheists I know don't even think about it, they just go about life (unless a juicy thread like this pops up). I'm an atheist, but if presented with evidence of a God, I'd believe. She may have just grown up in a non-religious family, wasn't presented with Christianity as a plausible ideology, then was murdered at the age of 15. Is she held accountable by God for this while the murderer gets an opportunity at salvation?

Seems merciless if yes. Saying it's beyond human understanding is a cop out, in my opinion.

Sounds like you lean more towards agnosticism. but I digress. It would be very difficult for me to believe your scenario in todays society and culture. Unless she was raised in a place where no television, radio or internet existed.

If she truly had never heard of Jesus Christ or anything about him, then IMO she would be considered ignorant. Not mentally but spiritually. In that scenario, she would go to heaven. Now, if she had heard of Jesus and his teachings, yet still took the stance of atheism, then she would probably go to hell.

Why would someone expect God to reward someone who denies his very existence and scoffs at his love?

 

[appyvol]

One, it is always interesting to see Christians throw out chapter upon chapter of Pauline doctrine for a couple of verses in James. There is no other biblical author who develops the doctrine of justification besides Paul. I get blasted by fellow Christians, but I see a contradiction between Paul and James. I'm not saying there isn't a resolution, but clearly the simple reading of the verses you provide and Paul's developed exposition in places like Romans 3 and 4 is contradictory. This usually results in Christians ringing their hands and screaming "heresy!!"

One thing I'm pretty sure of, people that state this think they are living up to a standard (even though they cannot articulate it) and that others arent. Well, that's self righteousness. You're going to stand before God and there will be the lamb of God, slain for you sin, and then you will say, "that's great lord, here is my contributuon. I voted republican, looked down my nose at *****s, didn't cuss (unless I stubbed my toe), and gave a few bucks to the church so we could build a gymnasium. You did your part lord and I did mine. And Lord, im better than Moses and David since i didnt even kill anyone."

No, considering I don't vote Republican

It means all these people who don't do anything to help others, who just go to church on Sunday morning and say "I believe in Jesus, I'm saved!" but then turn their nose up at the guy asking for change on the side of the road or the drunk/drug addict who they think they are better than maybe aren't as saved as they think they are. God tells us not to judge, but I know many "Christians" who judge everyday. You see, I used to be that drug addict. I've seen the looks, and felt the despair and hopelessness. Then I found Christ and turned my life around. So yeah, you could say we are saved through faith alone. I'm fine with that. But if you really have true faith, then you'll have the works to back it up. Every "Christian" should look at their works, and ask their self if Christ would approve of their works today. Did we love our neighbors today. Did we forgive someone who wronged us today. & if not, we need to do better. We are claiming the name of Christ, that we truly believe and follow his teachings. Have we? Do we? It's a question we need to ask ourselves on a daily basis.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Sounds like you lean more towards agnosticism. but I digress. It would be very difficult for me to believe your scenario in todays society and culture. Unless she was raised in a place where no television, radio or internet existed.

If she truly had never heard of Jesus Christ or anything about him, then IMO she would be considered ignorant. Not mentally but spiritually. In that scenario, she would go to heaven. Now, if she had heard of Jesus and his teachings, yet still took the stance of atheism, then she would probably go to hell.

Why would someone expect God to reward someone who denies his very existence and scoffs at his love?

Technically agnostic because I'm open to evidence, but I lean towards the side of atheism due to current lack of evidence.

Of course she's heard of it, but has she "experienced" it? Does this mean a child brought up in a family of Christians is more privileged than her? Why is she held accountable for not being born in optimal circumstances? Sins of the father type of thing?

 

[appyvol]

& for the record, I fall short every day. But I thank God for the opportunities to help others, and pray I will get more opportunities to help people, and spread the gospel.

On a completely different note, would a merciful damn us to hell for all eternity at death? Or would we get another chance after death? When Lazarus saw the rich man, was he in hell? Hell is endless torment, yet the rich man, albeit uncomfortable, could talk to Lazarus across the chasm. No man can cross that chasm, but I believe God can. Just my .02

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Technically agnostic because I'm open to evidence, but I lean towards the side of atheism due to current lack of evidence.

Of course she's heard of it, but has she "experienced" it? Does this mean a child brought up in a family of Christians is more privileged than her? Why is she held accountable for not being born in optimal circumstances? Sins of the father type of thing?

Understood on the first point.

Well the age of accountability has to come into play here. And that can be a tricky topic. I have heard it taught that the age is around 12-13. If you really think about it, that correlates with puberty in some. If taking that into account, then she being 15 would be able to make rational decisions about her spiritual beliefs. So she could visit a church, read the bible and learn more. Then she could get saved.

I really don't understand the experience it comment. Do you mean experiencing Jesus coming into her heart? if someone wants Jesus in, then they will experience it. privilege has nothing to do with IMO. After the age of accountability, each person is responsible for their own salvation. At least this is my opinion.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Just because she's an atheist doesn't mean she vehemently defends the non-existence of a God. Most atheists I know don't even think about it, they just go about life (unless a juicy thread like this pops up). I'm an atheist, but if presented with evidence of a God, I'd believe. She may have just grown up in a non-religious family, wasn't presented with Christianity as a plausible ideology, then was murdered at the age of 15. Is she held accountable by God for this while the murderer gets an opportunity at salvation?

Seems merciless if yes. Saying it's beyond human understanding is a cop out, in my opinion.

It's actually pretty much the opposite of merciless. You're actually angry that mercy was shown to someone.

And why should she not be held accountable? Her age? The fact that she was raised in an unbelieving home? (In America?)

It seems to me the common gripe about American Christians is that we are so vocal. That we tell people that they are sinners headed straight to Hell if they don't accept Jesus.

So, was this 15 year old girl chained to her bed with no contact with the over-zealous Christian louts that were warning everyone else? She didn't get the message? Mentally incapable of processing the simplicity of John 3:16?

What's her "out", except that she'd either not heard, or heard and decided that God just isn't for her?

It seems to me that your issue is less that she doesn't go to heaven, and he does. But the facts of your scenario are still that he chose heaven and she didn't. They were both given the same offer. One took it. One didn't. One received grace; the other didn't.

It's not 'merciless'. It's the exact opposite. A murderer was given mercy. And that seems to really chap you.

 

[PKT_VOL]

One, it is always interesting to see Christians throw out chapter upon chapter of Pauline doctrine for a couple of verses in James. There is no other biblical author who develops the doctrine of justification besides Paul. I get blasted by fellow Christians, but I see a contradiction between Paul and James. I'm not saying there isn't a resolution, but clearly the simple reading of the verses you provide and Paul's developed exposition in places like Romans 3 and 4 is contradictory. This usually results in Christians ringing their hands and screaming "heresy!!"

One thing I'm pretty sure of, people that state this think they are living up to a standard (even though they cannot articulate it) and that others arent. Well, that's self righteousness. You're going to stand before God and there will be the lamb of God, slain for you sin, and then you will say, "that's great lord, here is my contributuon. I voted republican, looked down my nose at *****s, didn't cuss (unless I stubbed my toe), and gave a few bucks to the church so we could build a gymnasium. You did your part lord and I did mine. And Lord, im better than Moses and David since i didnt even kill anyone."

That's because Paul is a fraud. Voluminous writing =/= validity.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Technically agnostic because I'm open to evidence, but I lean towards the side of atheism due to current lack of evidence.

Of course she's heard of it, but has she "experienced" it? Does this mean a child brought up in a family of Christians is more privileged than her? Why is she held accountable for not being born in optimal circumstances? Sins of the father type of thing?

I thought you guys were really proud of the fact that Christianity is on the decline. That there are fewer and fewer young people professing to be Christians. That would indicate that being born into Christian homes is not such an advantage, and that young people have the ability to think for themselves and make decisions based on something bigger than the worldview of their parents.

And what of the massive explosion of Christianity in places such as China, with its Hindu, Buddhist and Communist/Atheist background? That would indicate that people are able to hear the message and respond, despite their generational worldviews.

So, was she mentally challenged, or did she receive the message and reject it?

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

It's actually pretty much the opposite of merciless. You're actually angry that mercy was shown to someone.

And why should she not be held accountable? Her age? The fact that she was raised in an unbelieving home? (In America?)

It seems to me the common gripe about American Christians is that we are so vocal. That we tell people that they are sinners headed straight to Hell if they don't accept Jesus.

So, was this 15 year old girl chained to her bed with no contact with the over-zealous Christian louts that were warning everyone else? She didn't get the message? Mentally incapable of processing the simplicity of John 3:16?

What's her "out", except that she'd either not heard, or heard and decided that God just isn't for her?

It seems to me that your issue is less that she doesn't go to heaven, and he does. But the facts of your scenario are still that he chose heaven and she didn't. They were both given the same offer. One took it. One didn't. One received grace; the other didn't.

It's not 'merciless'. It's the exact opposite. A murderer was given mercy. And that seems to really chap you.

Well, I'm just playing devil's advocate as I don't really think either is going to heaven or hell.

I'm just questioning if the punishment fits the crime in this scenario.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

I thought you guys were really proud of the fact that Christianity is on the decline. That there are fewer and fewer young people professing to be Christians. That would indicate that being born into Christian homes is not such an advantage, and that young people have the ability to think for themselves and make decisions based on something bigger than the worldview of their parents.

And what of the massive explosion of Christianity in places such as China, with its Hindu, Buddhist and Communist/Atheist background? That would indicate that people are able to hear the message and respond, despite their generational worldviews.

So, was she mentally challenged, or did she receive the message and reject it?

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see any religion decline. It isn't just an anti-Christian thing for me. I try not to be a jerk and s**t on people's beliefs though (unless they're jerks, in which case you haven't been). I'm just curious about whether or not the punishment of eternal torture fits this girl's crime.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Well, I'm just playing devil's advocate as I don't really think either is going to heaven or hell.

I'm just questioning if the punishment fits the crime in this scenario.

So wait... It's about whether a 15 year old deserves Hell? Or that Bundy doesn't deserve heaven? You seem to be having a crisis of points.

You said that the scenario is "merciless" when mercy was actually given to a murderer, and was offered to the girl.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Understood on the first point.

Well the age of accountability has to come into play here. And that can be a tricky topic. I have heard it taught that the age is around 12-13. If you really think about it, that correlates with puberty in some. If taking that into account, then she being 15 would be able to make rational decisions about her spiritual beliefs. So she could visit a church, read the bible and learn more. Then she could get saved.

I really don't understand the experience it comment. Do you mean experiencing Jesus coming into her heart? if someone wants Jesus in, then they will experience it. privilege has nothing to do with IMO. After the age of accountability, each person is responsible for their own salvation. At least this is my opinion.

The age of accountability is something I've heard before, and I suppose that could be a justification for the punishment. It just seems cruel and unusual considering her murderer avoids it.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Just because she's an atheist doesn't mean she vehemently defends the non-existence of a God. Most atheists I know don't even think about it, they just go about life (unless a juicy thread like this pops up). I'm an atheist, but if presented with evidence of a God, I'd believe. She may have just grown up in a non-religious family, wasn't presented with Christianity as a plausible ideology, then was murdered at the age of 15. Is she held accountable by God for this while the murderer gets an opportunity at salvation?

Seems merciless if yes. Saying it's beyond human understanding is a cop out, in my opinion.

You stated the situation very well, thanks.:hi:

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

So wait... It's about whether a 15 year old deserves Hell? Or that Bundy doesn't deserve heaven? You seem to be having a crisis of points.

You said that the scenario is "merciless" when mercy was actually given to a murderer, and was offered to the girl.

I see the mercy for the murderer. It seems the same mercy isn't extended to the murdered. Considering her crime appears to be much smaller (from a non-believer's point of view, that is).

They were both offered mercy at the age of accountability, but the number of strikes seems higher for the murderer to me.

 

[Roustabout]

Funny how many think the issue of hell is one of how much they have or haven't sinned. Deserve or didn't deserve. Either Christians believe that Jesus died for sin, once, for all, or they don't.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see any religion decline. It isn't just an anti-Christian thing for me. I try not to be a jerk and s**t on people's beliefs though (unless they're jerks, in which case you haven't been). I'm just curious about whether or not the punishment of eternal torture fits this girl's crime.

Here's the way I look at it, and I've posted this in previous threads, so I won't expound on it theologically or philosophically here.

Heaven is an eternal place of God's presence and perfect, benevolent rule where sin nature and its effects no longer exist.

Hell is torment because it is a place outside of the perfect presence of God and is completely ruled by sin nature.

You have a person that basically says: "I rebel against you, God and won't accept your rule."

Letting that person in will ruin Heaven.

What do you do with them?




Secondly...

I've heard the argument that eternal punishment is unjust for temporal sin. Personally, I don't abide that. My view of God, who is the one sinned against, is bigger than that.

 

[Roustabout]

I see the mercy for the murderer. It seems the same mercy isn't extended to the murdered. Considering her crime appears to be much smaller (from a non-believer's point of view, that is).

They were both offered mercy at the age of accountability, but the number of strikes seems higher for the murderer to me.

The key words here, "too me."

 

[Orange_Crush]

Funny how many think the issue of hell is one of how much they have or haven't sinned. Deserve or didn't deserve. Either Christians believe that Jesus died for sin, once, for all, or they don't.

From my theological perspective, there's really only one sin that lands you in Hell, as Jesus told the Pharisees. My post above would infer that. :hi:

 

[ClearwaterVol]

It's actually pretty much the opposite of merciless. You're actually angry that mercy was shown to someone.

And why should she not be held accountable? Her age? The fact that she was raised in an unbelieving home? (In America?)

It seems to me the common gripe about American Christians is that we are so vocal. That we tell people that they are sinners headed straight to Hell if they don't accept Jesus.

So, was this 15 year old girl chained to her bed with no contact with the over-zealous Christian louts that were warning everyone else? She didn't get the message? Mentally incapable of processing the simplicity of John 3:16?

What's her "out", except that she'd either not heard, or heard and decided that God just isn't for her?

It seems to me that your issue is less that she doesn't go to heaven, and he does. But the facts of your scenario are still that he chose heaven and she didn't. They were both given the same offer. One took it. One didn't. One received grace; the other didn't.

It's not 'merciless'. It's the exact opposite. A murderer was given mercy. And that seems to really chap you.

Nope, I don't give two rat poops about the murderer. It is a lack of mercy shown to an individual who because of her upbringing hadn't truly been permitted to experience Christianity.

The only way you turn this into a merciful situation is to focus on the murderer which I have never done. My focus has been on the young lady. My situation was that she was never truly permitted to find Jesus. Until you near 18 most people's religion is that of their parents. It's unfair to hold one accountable for a situation that was not your making.

 

[Roustabout]

No, considering I don't vote Republican

It means all these people who don't do anything to help others, who just go to church on Sunday morning and say "I believe in Jesus, I'm saved!" but then turn their nose up at the guy asking for change on the side of the road or the drunk/drug addict who they think they are better than maybe aren't as saved as they think they are. God tells us not to judge, but I know many "Christians" who judge everyday. You see, I used to be that drug addict. I've seen the looks, and felt the despair and hopelessness. Then I found Christ and turned my life around. So yeah, you could say we are saved through faith alone. I'm fine with that. But if you really have true faith, then you'll have the works to back it up. Every "Christian" should look at their works, and ask their self if Christ would approve of their works today. Did we love our neighbors today. Did we forgive someone who wronged us today. & if not, we need to do better. We are claiming the name of Christ, that we truly believe and follow his teachings. Have we? Do we? It's a question we need to ask ourselves on a daily basis.

Yes, and you are judging. You assume your works merit you more than the believer who hasn't overcome an addiction.

Of course we ought to love our neighbors. Are you? Really?
Would you care to take an exam to see whether you are really living your neighbors?

 

[Roustabout]

Nope, I don't give two rat poops about the murderer. It is a lack of mercy shown to an individual who because of her upbringing hadn't truly been permitted to experience Christianity.

The only way you turn this into a merciful situation is to focus on the murderer which I have never done. My focus has been on the young lady. My situation was that she was never truly permitted to find Jesus. Until you near 18 most people's religion is that of their parents. It's unfair to hold one accountable for a situation that was not your making.

Permitted?
So you think God sends people to hell who don't deserve hell, but are simply ignorant.
I missed that verse.

 

[Orange_Crush]

My situation was that she was never truly permitted to find Jesus. Until you near 18 most people's religion is that of their parents. It's unfair to hold one accountable for a situation that was not your making.

Bull. I've seen 12 year olds from atheist families respond to the gospel more times than I can count, and more preacher's kids reject Christianity than I care to describe.

And you seem to intermix fair, just, grace, and mercy almost as if you don't know the differences. If she deserves heaven, no grace is needed, so it truly would be merciless. If she didn't deserve heaven, grace and mercy would be needed, offered, but not guaranteed--because that's the definition of grace and mercy. Undeserved.

If your hypothesis is that she deserves heaven, then you'd need to take it up with God. It's His house and all.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Bull. I've seen 12 year olds from atheist families respond to the gospel more times than I can count, and more preacher's kids reject Christianity than I care to describe.

And you seem to intermix fair, just, grace, and mercy almost as if you don't know the differences. If she deserves heaven, no grace is needed, so it truly would be merciless. If she didn't deserve heaven grace and mercy would be needed, offered, but not guaranteed--because that's the definition of grace and mercy. Undeserved.

If your hypothesis is that she deserves heaven, then you'd need to take it up with God. It's His house and all.

Nah, it's you that believes in the ruthless bastard.

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

Again, he killed a 15 year old in the most brutal way possible. Just assume she lived with atheist parents. At 15 she really may not know enough about Christianity to convert. Therefore, she burns in hell while the man that raped and brutally murdered her gets the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus Christ as his lord and savior ascend in to heaven?

I find that to be an incredibly f'd up resolution. If that is your God, I want no part.

Ok so just to be clear, let's recap.

The only way you will accept God is if:

-Someone who has lead a life of sin has no opportunity for forgiveness when he nears the end of his life. Even though that would certainly be indicative of a "loving" God.

-God can not be "loving" if he takes a murderer who repents to heaven, but doesn't take the person he murdered as well, because the person he murdered had less time to figure out how to accept God.

-If none of them accept God, taking neither to heaven is understandable, but an exception should be made for someone who "grew up in an atheist household."

Have we nailed the pertinent facts?