Why Is It That...

#1
rexvol

rexvol

The Minister of Defense
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
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#1
When USC, Bama, Or UF signs a top five/ten recruiting class the kids acutally produce, but when the Vols do it, our class is loaded with busts? I dont understand it and maybe its a perception thing, but Tennessee seems to sign more busts than any other school. Look at 2007:

And the list keeps growing... 32 kids in the 2007 class.

William Brimfield
Brent Vinson
Kenny O' Neal
Lennon Creer
DeShaun Barnes
Todd Campbell
BJ Coleman
Cory Hall
Josh Hawkins
Donald Langley
Tyler Maples
Rolando Melancon
Ahmaid Paige
Darris Sawtelle
Daryl Vereen
Rufus Williams

16 out of 32 nonfactors 50%

Eric Berry- Early NFL
Dennis Rogan- Early NFL

Chris Donald- safe to say not a 5 star player

Chris Walker, Ben Martin, Gerald Jones, Denarius Moore, Art Evans, Savion Frazier,Cody Pope and Anthony Anderson will be starters/contributers in 2010.
Click to expand...

thats from a poster on TOS. I just dont believe its an evaluation thing because those kids were offered schollies by other big time programs. Was Phil just unable to develop players?
 
#2
#2
I'd say Phil is at least extremely responsible. Combination of evaluation and development.
 
#3
#3
I'm not even concerned about that class, it was a Fulmer class and after 2002 most of his classes were terrible in producing because of the assistant coaches we had. Time to look forward to the future instead of dwelling on the past.
 
#4
#4
rexvol said:
When USC, Bama, Or UF signs a top five/ten recruiting class the kids acutally produce, but when the Vols do it, our class is loaded with busts? I dont understand it and maybe its a perception thing, but Tennessee seems to sign more busts than any other school. Look at 2007:



thats from a poster on TOS. I just dont believe its an evaluation thing because those kids were offered schollies by other big time programs. Was Phil just unable to develop players?
Click to expand...

This is not true. They have just as many busts as we do, they just sign more 4 and 5 star players. Also, keep in mind that Bama is just 2 years removed from having a 6-6 record with a loss to LA Monroe or whoever it was.... Also, Phil was able to develop players. To think otherwise is dumb. It is difficult for a player in the 2007 class to fully "develop" when they are learning their 4th offense in their 4th year....

The whole "development" issue has been discussed time and time again but the problem with it is that folks are willing to blame Phil or another HC if a player is a bust, but doesn't credit him for developing the players that produce. In other words, Phil will be blamed for not getting more out of Chris Donald, but won't be credited for making Eric Berry the best DB in the nation....just my two cents
 
#6
#6
WPAINE said:
This is not true. They have just as many busts as we do, they just sign more 4 and 5 star players. Also, keep in mind that Bama is just 2 years removed from having a 6-6 record with a loss to LA Monroe or whoever it was.... Also, Phil was able to develop players. To think otherwise is dumb. It is difficult for a player in the 2007 class to fully "develop" when they are learning their 4th offense in their 4th year....

The whole "development" issue has been discussed time and time again but the problem with it is that folks are willing to blame Phil or another HC if a player is a bust, but doesn't credit him for developing the players that produce. In other words, Phil will be blamed for not getting more out of Chris Donald, but won't be credited for making Eric Berry the best DB in the nation....just my two cents
Click to expand...

Phil's classes have not produced much starting in the 2004 NFL draft. We have only had 21 NFL Draft picks in that time, which is an average of 4 per year. That's not very good, IMO. Also, if you want to say that 21 is a good number, go look at the skill positions on offense that have been drafted in that time frame, and only 5 have been drafted. Not very good production, IMO.
 
#7
#7
Don't know about USC, but Alabama and Florida have a lot of players from in state each year, and Tn. doesn't seem to have the in state players to recruit that these states do.
 
#8
#8
its hard not to look at the past when the past is still on campus and making headlines.
 
#10
#10
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I'm not even concerned about that class, it was a Fulmer class and after 2002 most of his classes were terrible in producing because of the assistant coaches we had. Time to look forward to the future instead of dwelling on the past.
Click to expand...

Coaches like

Randy Sanders,Trooper Taylor,Greg Atkins,Rick Clawson,Latrell Scott,etc.
 
#11
#11
The lack of production out of that 2007 class is a major reason why we're so thin and young this year. The dud that was the 2008 recruiting class will haunt us this year and next.
 
#12
#12
I think development was adequate, but recruiting, not necessarily the rankings, but the reality of the prospects brought to campus over the past several years is what finally brought Fulmer down...in addition to an incompitent OL coach, a lazy recruiting D coordinator and a couple other lazy recruiters and a disfunctional OC situation.

But it's over now, just cleaning up the mess, then the mess that was Kiffin after that mess.
 
#14
#14
1. Line recruiting - Our OL and DL recruiting has been below average for the last several years.
2. Discipline - many of our players that have been busts have had discipline issues.
3. Player position changes - look at how many players have been recruited as a 4 or 5* that was changed to another position. For example, Vinson, Warren, Donald, Wilks.
 
#15
#15
It isn't just one reason.

One part is that UT has taken more character risks in the past. When your home state produces the talent that CA, GA, or FL does then you can usually get kids with both talent and good character. By character, I'm not just talking about misconduct but also poor work ethics or a lack of a winner's attitude.

Another associated part to that was the lack of discipline at UT beginning when Cut left. Some discipline is passed from upper classmen to under classmen but eventually you lose it if coaches aren't strongly reinforcing it. Cut played "dad" to Fulmer's "mom". Fulmer coddled and nutured. Cut laid down the law. Fulmer's goose was cooked as soon as he chose Sanders for OC.

One of the good things CLK did was to reestablish discipline among the players. Hopefully Dooley will build on that while also taking the proactive approach with that character development program.

I think the overall point is valid. If guys leave the program, it should be because they couldn't compete and not because they got into trouble or couldn't stay academically eligible.
 
#17
#17
Subtract Nuke, B.Brown, Mike Edwards & James Green from the 2009 class and what is our star ranking?
 
#20
#20
rexvol said:
When USC, Bama, Or UF signs a top five/ten recruiting class the kids acutally produce, but when the Vols do it, our class is loaded with busts? I dont understand it and maybe its a perception thing, but Tennessee seems to sign more busts than any other school. Look at 2007:



thats from a poster on TOS. I just dont believe its an evaluation thing because those kids were offered schollies by other big time programs. Was Phil just unable to develop players?
Click to expand...

That's all Phil's players. No secret he couldn't develop or recognize talent. He only went after the stars.
 
#22
#22
WPAINE said:
Also, Phil was able to develop players. To think otherwise is dumb.
Click to expand...

Tell that to some NFL players that said they learned more in their first day as a pro than in four to five years in Knoxville. Ditto for the legions of current players that said the same thing about the first Kiffin-led practice.
 
#23
#23
We should start a SEC Busts thread.....I think every school has had their fair share.
 
#24
#24
sjt18 said:
It isn't just one reason.

One part is that UT has taken more character risks in the past. When your home state produces the talent that CA, GA, or FL does then you can usually get kids with both talent and good character. By character, I'm not just talking about misconduct but also poor work ethics or a lack of a winner's attitude.

Another associated part to that was the lack of discipline at UT beginning when Cut left. Some discipline is passed from upper classmen to under classmen but eventually you lose it if coaches aren't strongly reinforcing it. Cut played "dad" to Fulmer's "mom". Fulmer coddled and nutured. Cut laid down the law. Fulmer's goose was cooked as soon as he chose Sanders for OC.

One of the good things CLK did was to reestablish discipline among the players. Hopefully Dooley will build on that while also taking the proactive approach with that character development program.

I think the overall point is valid. If guys leave the program, it should be because they couldn't compete and not because they got into trouble or couldn't stay academically eligible.
Click to expand...

All good points. I would like to add that when you are recruiting in-state, you probably are getting more updates about individual players. It is much easier to make a good decision about who to take. For Tennessee, we see a 5* from a distance, but the state school may only give token effort to signing them, because they know the whole story on the player. So, some of the players we "steal" away are not always the whole package we think they are. In other words, we are sometimes taking their rejects.

I definitely agree that we may have culled out many of the character issues. Hopefully, the environment of discipline has been re-instilled in the program. That, even more than talent will pay dividends in a couple of years - if the "whathaveyoudoneformelately" crowd doesn't run Dooley off before then.
 
#25
#25
I think it's about time for all us Vol fans to man up, take it on the chin, and get through this. Every team goes through crap like this. We're down, we will be back up again. Get that swag back, because it's sickening to watch the whining here
 
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