Why Bruce Lied

#101
#101
goodtimecharlie said:
This was so crazy firing the best coach Tennessee men had ever had ,this will hurt the program worst then taking the charges from the ncaa .You don't see nascar firing the grew chief when they get caught cheating they just pay the fines and move on because if you are a winner in any sport there is a very fine line in playing by the rules and cheating it always been that way and always will be he just got caught .pay the fine and move on it would have been cheaper in the long run this firing will cost millions in lost because it will take a long time to rebuild a program from the ground up.Does people really think KY coach get the number one draft picks every year being honest.winning is were the money is at you do what you have to do if you have to do to stay on top just look at Jimmy Johnsons race team they have been caught cheating and no one has been fired annd now they are in the history books as winners Tennessee needs a AD instead of a new coach .
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I don't mind the cheating so much as I mind the crying.

You don't see nascar grew chiefs crying when they get caught cheating. They just make it rain and move on. That's what winners do. Win, and make it rain, and not cry. In that order. That's why UT needs to replace men's basketball with auto racing.
 
#102
#102
mch317 said:
I don't, sorry. Don't lie. If you have an assistant coach that feels the need to lie, he shouldn't be on your staff.
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that is easy to say on the outside. working with someone day to day and going through the grind day to day makes one form bonds. bonds that are much stronger than one might have to some random yeahoo from the AA who comes asking questions. JMHO
 
#103
#103
Jaytrain5 said:
I don't mind the cheating so much as I mind the crying.

You don't see nascar grew chiefs crying when they get caught cheating. They just make it rain and move on. That's what winners do. Win, and make it rain, and not cry. In that order. That's why UT needs to replace men's basketball with auto racing.
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I'm in. Paint scheme debates and sponsor decal placement decisions will be epic.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#104
#104
Scottyhop said:
Bottom line is Bruce is the first coach to lose his job over a minor violation (and then cover up) that I can remember. His stunt at Iowa is a weird link to me.
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Bruce is not the first coach fired for lying to the NCAA. Which is why he is no longer at UT. Then lied again. Then told others to lie. Then lied again. Then committed a violation. Then committed another violation. Then lied to his AD.

I really think you might be stretching this Pearl selfless thing but what do I know, I'm a UK fan:good!:
 
#105
#105
goodtimecharlie said:
This was so crazy firing the best coach Tennessee men had ever had ,this will hurt the program worst then taking the charges from the ncaa .You don't see nascar firing the grew chief when they get caught cheating they just pay the fines and move on because if you are a winner in any sport there is a very fine line in playing by the rules and cheating it always been that way and always will be he just got caught .pay the fine and move on it would have been cheaper in the long run this firing will cost millions in lost because it will take a long time to rebuild a program from the ground up.Does people really think KY coach get the number one draft picks every year being honest.winning is were the money is at you do what you have to do if you have to do to stay on top just look at Jimmy Johnsons race team they have been caught cheating and no one has been fired annd now they are in the history books as winners Tennessee needs a AD instead of a new coach .
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Where do you begin with this little gem?

I'll go first: a space before punctuation and none after it?
 
#109
#109
Scottyhop said:
The way Gotlieb breaks down the bbq rule makes you realize how dumb that is. Selby and Craft PAID THEIR OWN MONEY to come to UT. Bruce is having a cook out with the team at his home. What is he suppose to say, "**** off you are juniors. You and your family should go eat and Mcdonalds."
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So if it was 2 prospects and thier parents ,he probably knew they were going to be in town .. so why have a team bbq that he knows they cant attend ???:loco: ya get the point ???
 
#110
#110
Scottyhop said:
According to Gotlieb an assitant was interviewed first. That assistant lied and then Bruce felt he had to lie.

So Bruce basically had a choice to either tell the truth and end the career of that assistant as well as punishment similar to UCONN or risk it all by lying and trying to cover it up. He basically attempted to save the assistants job instead of throwing him to the wolves. I have much more respect for Bruce if this is the case and I think the NCAA lying rule is garbage. I still think Bruce had to go, but this whole thing feels like a set up and the NCAA is punishing Bruce for his Iowa stunt.
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which proves that nobody likes a snitch :yes: not even the people he is snitching to !!!
 
#111
#111
Jaytrain5 said:
I don't mind the cheating so much as I mind the crying.

You don't see nascar grew chiefs crying when they get caught cheating. They just make it rain and move on. That's what winners do. Win, and make it rain, and not cry. In that order. That's why UT needs to replace men's basketball with auto racing.
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Awesome. What should the number be?
 
#113
#113
I have three questions after reading the thread and all the posted articles/info.

1. Who was advising Pearl and the assistants and prepping them for the NCAA questions?

2. Why did Cheek and Hamilton not fire Pearl at the time his contract was terminated?

3. Why did they stand behind Pearl at that very moment, saying he would be the coach for a very long time? Knowing what they knew, assuming they have brains, why?
 
#114
#114
vol66 said:
I have three questions after reading the thread and all the posted articles/info.

1. Who was advising Pearl and the assistants and prepping them for the NCAA questions?

2. Why did Cheek and Hamilton not fire Pearl at the time his contract was terminated?

3. Why did they stand behind Pearl at that very moment, saying he would be the coach for a very long time? Knowing what they knew, assuming they have brains, why?
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1. No one was "prepping" Pearl and the assistants. In fact, if you read the letter of termination, the fact that he and his assistants met to discuss the NCAA interview at all is listed as evidence of "fail[ing] to promote an atmosphere for compliance." You are not allowed to get your story straight.

2. and 3. They wanted to keep him. I'm sure some people think that they were planning to dump Pearl all along as soon as the season was over, and that they just had to stick with him through the season because the lying came out too close to basketball season to find a new coach, but I think the simplest answer is just that they thought they could sanction him heavily and weather the storm.

Then more stuff came out, Hamilton couldn't bargain the NCAA down from the dreaded "unethical conduct" (meaning at least a one and probably a two year suspension for Pearl), and they decided they just couldn't stick with him after all.
 
#115
#115
Vercingetorix said:
1. No one was "prepping" Pearl and the assistants. In fact, if you read the letter of termination, the fact that he and his assistants met to discuss the NCAA interview at all is listed as evidence of "fail[ing] to promote an atmosphere for compliance." You are not allowed to get your story straight.

2. and 3. They wanted to keep him. I'm sure some people think that they were planning to dump Pearl all along as soon as the season was over, and that they just had to stick with him through the season because the lying came out too close to basketball season to find a new coach, but I think the simplest answer is just that they thought they could sanction him heavily and weather the storm.

Then more stuff came out, Hamilton couldn't bargain the NCAA down from the dreaded "unethical conduct" (meaning at least a one and probably a two year suspension for Pearl), and they decided they just couldn't stick with him after all.
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I sort of want to give ya #1, but...I'm not talking get your story straight. I'm talking a mountain of lawyers at UT's disposal and no "go in there and tell the truth, it's a secondary"?

2 & 3...Loyalty, I get it, but I don't buy it. In the LOT, they lay it all out, at least as they knew it at the time. It's damning. No one would have burned a mattress, even today, that's the bulk of it. By making the statement "they would keep him no matter what", they made it gave fans hope that they could cling too AND of more importance, said to the NCAA, "the fight is on."

I appreciate your post but my search for answers continues.
 
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#116
#116
Scottyhop said:
Easy enough to say from your position, but if it is a friend who you have worked with for years it is different. You think about the person, their wife, their kids. An assistant who gets hit for lying is basically out of college bball for life.
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Some friend if he puts you in a position where you have to lie too, thereby jeopardizing your own career.
 
#117
#117
oklavol said:
The point is it should be a minor violation. Your firing your coach for inviting a couple of committed players to a team bbq at the coach's house. Lying about a minor violation is suppose to get a coach fired?

Compare that to Cam Newton's dad trying to shop his son around to the highest bidder.
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Cam Newton has nothing to do with this. That was Auburn, this is Tennessee. Let's deal with our mess, not theirs.

Lying to the NCAA is a major violation. Bylaws clearly spell it out. Don't lie to us or you will be severely punished. Bruce knew the rules when he decided to break them.

Committed players change their mind all the time. Haven't we seen that enough in football? Besides, rules are still rules. Pearl agreed to follow the rules. He failed to follow the rules. Consequences still yet to be fully determined.

And it's also noteworthy that he committed the same illegal contact violation at UWM, so he was very familiar with said rule.
 
#118
#118
vol66 said:
I have three questions after reading the thread and all the posted articles/info.

1. Who was advising Pearl and the assistants and prepping them for the NCAA questions?

2. Why did Cheek and Hamilton not fire Pearl at the time his contract was terminated?

3. Why did they stand behind Pearl at that very moment, saying he would be the coach for a very long time? Knowing what they knew, assuming they have brains, why?
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1. No one should have been. If someone was, it defeats the purpose of investigating.

2. Two answers here: 1) You can't find a good coach in September. Let him ride out a season where Tennessee was expected to win big and deal with the consequences later

Or 2) They honestly thought Pearl would get a slap on the wrist and move forward.

3. No one is going to say "We're firing his ass as soon as the NCAA is done snooping around"
 
#119
#119
vol66 said:
I sort of want to give ya #1, but...I'm not talking get your story straight. I'm talking a mountain of lawyers at UT's disposal and no "go in there and tell the truth, it's a secondary"?

2 & 3...Loyalty, I get it, but I don't buy it. In the LOT, they lay it all out, at least as they knew it at the time. It's damning. No one would have burned a mattress, even today, that's the bulk of it. By making the statement "they would keep him no matter what", they made it gave fans hope that they could cling too AND of more importance, said to the NCAA, "the fight is on."

I appreciate your post but my search for answers continues.
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It should not take a mountain of lawyers to remind coaches to tell the truth to NCAA investigators. Every coach in the country knows what the NCAA does if they catch you lying. Pearl knew damn well what the potential consequences were if he got caught in a lie. I have no idea how he thought he could get away with lying about a picture of his own damn house.

The LOT was deliberately damning because it's the letter that terminates the contract. It HAS to be as damning as possible; it's the primary document in case Pearl sues the university later on. If there's litigation, the LOT is what the university's lawyers wave around in the air, saying "Look how badly this guy screwed up. The university was clearly in their rights to void his contract for cause." I'm pretty sure they still fully intended to keep him at that point if possible. And if that's the case, then they had to give him their full verbal support -- otherwise it dogs the players and coaches all season long and the season becomes a farce.

You're not going to find any solid answers. Very few of us are ever going to hear about what kind of back-and-forthing went on between the UTAD and the NCAA between the press conference and the LOA and the firing, and at this point it's starting to look unlikely that we're even going to get details about the so-called other issues that surfaced between then and now that supposedly made the coaching staff "not viable." We as fans are just not going to hear about it. Either Pearl did some stuff that made UT change their minds, or the NCAA leaned on them heavily enough that they felt they had no choice, or both.
 
#120
#120
Scottyhop said:
Easy enough to say from your position, but if it is a friend who you have worked with for years it is different. You think about the person, their wife, their kids. An assistant who gets hit for lying is basically out of college bball for life.
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Are you sure you understand the ramifications of what you are saying? Think about the concept of lying yourself in order to cover up the lies of those around you, so as not to allow them to pay a price. Just stop and think about it for a moment.

If a person is no stronger a leader than that, then it was only a matter of time before he was gone on a host of other infractions that have yet to surface.

I hate the fact the CBP is gone, believe me, but after sorting through the facts as much as I can, it appears that he (as the leader) fostered a culture of living on the edge of the rules (to put it nicely). He got caught at it plain and simple.

Yeah, many others surely do the same, and have yet to get caught. Some will and some won't. BP and company seemed in my estimation to have had a culture of this kind of behavior and finally got caught.

Trying to kick against the rules after the hammer drops is not the right thing to do. We had a great run under BP & staff, and you can imagine that many other rules were broken to get us there. I imagine that our staff got away with a lot more than they were caught for. :dance:

We're gonna pay for this, but it's not the end of the world. If Hammy opens the register and brings in a good coach, we have a decent foundation to build on.
 
#121
#121
justingroves said:
1. No one should have been. If someone was, it defeats the purpose of investigating.

2. Two answers here: 1) You can't find a good coach in September. Let him ride out a season where Tennessee was expected to win big and deal with the consequences later

Or 2) They honestly thought Pearl would get a slap on the wrist and move forward.

3. No one is going to say "We're firing his ass as soon as the NCAA is done snooping around"
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1. Not sure what to think. Seems like watching the USC thing, there were lawyers inolved until the very end, you may be right.

2.Why not fire him or suspend him, and hand over the reigns to an interim coach.

3. Nothing says" we're sincere" like letting the coaches stay on the recruiting trail for two more weeks. Isin't that the time frame for the bump.
 
#122
#122
Vercingetorix said:
It should not take a mountain of lawyers to remind coaches to tell the truth to NCAA investigators. Every coach in the country knows what the NCAA does if they catch you lying. Pearl knew damn well what the potential consequences were if he got caught in a lie. I have no idea how he thought he could get away with lying about a picture of his own damn house.

The LOT was deliberately damning because it's the letter that terminates the contract. It HAS to be as damning as possible; it's the primary document in case Pearl sues the university later on. If there's litigation, the LOT is what the university's lawyers wave around in the air, saying "Look how badly this guy screwed up. The university was clearly in their rights to void his contract for cause." I'm pretty sure they still fully intended to keep him at that point if possible. And if that's the case, then they had to give him their full verbal support -- otherwise it dogs the players and coaches all season long and the season becomes a farce.

You're not going to find any solid answers. Very few of us are ever going to hear about what kind of back-and-forthing went on between the UTAD and the NCAA between the press conference and the LOA and the firing, and at this point it's starting to look unlikely that we're even going to get details about the so-called other issues that surfaced between then and now that supposedly made the coaching staff "not viable." We as fans are just not going to hear about it. Either Pearl did some stuff that made UT change their minds, or the NCAA leaned on them heavily enough that they felt they had no choice, or both.
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If he wasn't a solid enough employee to have a contract, then why would they not fire him or suspend him at that time?

If they laid the groundwork with the LOT to withstand a challenge from Pearl's attorneys, why would they let him coach going forward?
 
#123
#123
vol66 said:
If he wasn't a solid enough employee to have a contract, then why would they not fire him or suspend him at that time?

If they laid the groundwork with the LOT to withstand a challenge from Pearl's attorneys, why would they let him coach going forward?
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I don't disagree with you. I would have been fine if they'd just flat-out fired him on the spot.

Nevertheless, I think they sincerely intended to keep him. But that obviously required a reworking of Pearl's contract due to the uncertainty over what was going to happen to Pearl. The university suddenly had an enormous amount of risk involved, thanks to Pearl's actions, and the contract needed to reflect that. So they came to an agreement with him: we're going to void your current contract for cause, right now, as we are clearly within our rights to do. And then we're going to immediately turn around and hire you as an at-will employee on a salary, and you can work that way while we negotiate a new contract that reflects all this uncertainty in a way that's acceptable to both sides. That's how they proceeded, but of course they never actually did get around to agreeing to the new contract. Which is why the LOT had to be written that way to begin with, of course -- in case there never was a second contract, for whatever reason. The university had to be protected.
 
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#124
#124
vol66 said:
If he wasn't a solid enough employee to have a contract, then why would they not fire him or suspend him at that time?

If they laid the groundwork with the LOT to withstand a challenge from Pearl's attorneys, why would they let him coach going forward?
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Many feel that Hammy was hoping until the very end he could save Pearl, as his fate may be tied to that of Pearl's somewhat. To date, Pearl is his only hire that has shown success. They terminated Pearl's contract when they did to appease the NCAA. They wanted to show they weren't taking this lightly. But they kept him as coach because it was what was best for the program. The season was about to start, we were anticipating success, you had no time to bring in another coach. Besides, Hammy thought they could ride it out. He was wrong.

The LOT was all about protecting your backside. You hope for the best, you prepare for the worst. Again, Hammy supported Pearl until it became clear he could no longer support Pearl, which was probably sometime late February. At least, that's my take.
 
#125
#125
Vercingetorix said:
I don't disagree with you. I would have been fine if they'd just flat-out fired him on the spot.

Nevertheless, I think they sincerely intended to keep him. But that obviously required a reworking of Pearl's contract due to the uncertainty over what was going to happen to Pearl. The university suddenly had an enormous amount of risk involved, thanks to Pearl's actions, and the contract needed to reflect that. So they came to an agreement with him: we're going to void your current contract for cause, right now, as we are clearly within our rights to do. And then we're going to immediately turn around and hire you as an at-will employee on a salary, and you can work that way while we negotiate a new contract that reflects all this uncertainty in a way that's acceptable to both sides. That's how they proceeded, but of course they never actually did get around to agreeing to the new contract. Which is why the LOT had to be written that way to begin with, of course -- in case there never was a second contract, for whatever reason. The university had to be protected.
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I agree with what you stated there. To think that they did not analyze the risk/cost of a season with Pearl ousted/suspended and an interim coach working the bench seems absurd. They did not suspend or fire him at that time because they were afraid of not being able to put butts in the seats. They wanted to capitalize on the early schedule and make sure they got to the tourney and receive the NCAA credits that come with it. That is my contention and I don't expect anyone will like it or believe it.
 
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