Who saw the E:60 story on Ark HS coach that never punts?

#51
#51
I didn't see E:60 but I saw the Real Sports on HBO about the guy, and he had a lot to statistics (along with a @#$# load of wins) to back up what he was saying. The fact that NFL teams are contacting him to discuss his style tells you it's not completely absurd.
 
#53
#53
thevolwalker said:
Thus the main reason he changed his philosophy to begin with. He can throw as many stats as he wants to defend his reasoning, but if you have a terrible punter then it makes sense to go for it on 4th.
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That would be the only time that I could go with "never" punts. It's entirely situational. I do think some coaches pro and college do go with conventional wisdom without considering the circumstances though. Say your punter has sucked all day or is injured, etc, some coaches will still punt the ball even on fourth and short when conventional wisdom says to. Or if playing a potent offense and your defense has sucked all game, it almost favors going for fourth and short. If I'm playing a team with an incredible conversion rate every time they touch the ball like say Oregon, etc; maybe you go against the grain and even consider going for it on your own side of the field on a fourth and one or two especially if you're a team with less talent.
 
#54
#54
depending on where you are punting from. 4 &10 from your own 1 i would say punt give your defense a chance. 4&10 on the 50 go for it
 
#55
#55
I think some of you guys might be missing the big picture of what the coach is saying. It isn't just that he doesn't punt, he also rarely kicks deep on kickoffs. They have like a dozen different onside kicks and they practice them constantly. His philosophy is pretty much never concede to giving the other team the ball.
 
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#58
#58
PowerSweep said:
It was particularly interesting for me because I have been saying for years that punting is mostly pretty dumb...ALWAYS bad in high school(where it nets about 20-25 yards), MOSTLY bad in college(high 30's), and GENERALLY bad in the NFL(low 40's). The difference in all 3 is what a normal outcome is on a punt.

What seems crazy to me is that we have known for a long time now that statistically it doesn't make much sense. Even from a non statistical standpoint it is a voluntary turnover...throw a pick 20 yards downfield? Terrible says the average fan...30 yard net punt from the 39 yard line downed at the 9? Good job! How silly is that?

I guess it is just a consequence of normal human motivations..do something conventional and lose and it was the player's fault..do something UNconventional and lose an it is your fault. For an example look at the obviously statistically correct call belichik made going for 4th and 1 on his own 29 late in a game vs colts several yrs ago.

But change is possible, and baseball shows it...the stat guys have changed strategy immensely in the past decade or so, and I have to think eventually the same thing will happen in football. It is criminal for some of these guys making millions to not have a better grasp of risk/reward in terms of strategy.

While I am on it, some other dumb things coaches often do...calling timeouts to save clock after a first down in college(thus wasting 15 seconds), saving timeouts for the offense(although you see that less now), not kicking onsides when you kick off from midfield, not going for 2 after a defensive penalty on xp attempts, not just letting other team score when down 1 very late(say other team has it up 21-20, 1st-10 at your 36 w 2:29 left and no to's)...those are off the top of my head...non football but not fouling up 3 under 10 seconds another head scratcher

any thoughts? anyone see that story?
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Well I remember a coach named Butch Joes tried that a couple of times while at Cincy when playing the Vols and was stopped both times. Those plays helped keep the momentum with us and stifled any chance for an upset from Cincy, so I say punt the ball and make the offense earn every yard.
 
#59
#59
crusse10 said:
I think it's absurd. The punting game can help not lose a game.
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Unless you had the punter we had a decade or so that kept (I think it was USCe) pinned in the 10 yard line!

But, I saw it years ago and I found it interesting!
 
#61
#61
armchair said:
You guys realize, don't you, that Steve Spurrier has been a no-punt coach for most of his career. He hates punting the ball and almost always wants to go for it. He used to play with Fulmer's mind, big-time, in this way. For at least his first decade as Vols coach, Fulmer was ultra-conservative (and just not very smart): He would NEVER go for a first on fourth down--ALWAYS either punted the ball or kicked a FG. Spurrier, meanwhile, would go for it on 4th and 8 from his 40. He was not only beating Fulmer (and us) but spooking him as well. I'll never forget one horrible florida game at Neyland: It was another of the supposed "big" UT-florida games that ended up a florida blowout. In the first quarter, as I recall, Florida was already beating us 14-0, and the gators faced a 4th and 10 on our 35/40 yard line or thereabouts: Spurrier opts to go for it and florida throws a TD pass to increase the lead to 21-0. (Another of our humiliating losses to florida).

In 1999, when we were loaded and UT and florida were both in the Top 5, florida was leading near the end of the game, and Spurrier decided to go for a first on 4th down around the 50 yard line, knowing a first down would win the game--we wouldn't get the ball back. The Vols stopped the run, got the ball, down by 3 or 4 (as I recall): We had two chances to make 3 yards, Fulmer ran J. Lewis on both 3rd and 4th and he was stoned. We lost. Had we run Martin on a bootleg after faking to Lewis (obvious call for anyone with an ounce of creativity and balls), he'd still be running and we would have won the game.
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Steve spurrier might be the only coach in D1 history to have punted on 3rd down.
 
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#62
#62
if you don't punt, you will always leave the other team on the edge of field goal range while never flipping the field and putting yourself in the same position.
 
#63
#63
Really depends on matchups. You still have a lot of HS players that aren't that big. If you happen to be Maryville where you're bigger than most, it makes sense. The mismatches are easier to create on 4th and going for it. In college, there tends to be more parity between teams/players with size, speed and strength. Anyone want to go for it on 4th and 3 from our own 35/40 against Bama? FLA? UGA? I would rather flip the field all day every day and twice on Sundays.
 
#64
#64
volgrad500 said:
I didn't see E:60 but I saw the Real Sports on HBO about the guy, and he had a lot to statistics (along with a @#$# load of wins) to back up what he was saying. The fact that NFL teams are contacting him to discuss his style tells you it's not completely absurd.
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Yes!! thanks for correcting me...it was indeed on HBO that I saw the story
 
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#65
#65
xpsyclonex2002 said:
if you don't punt, you will always leave the other team on the edge of field goal range while never flipping the field and putting yourself in the same position.
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So what? The object is to score more than your opponent and punting hurts that goal...just basic statistics..but this thread and the responses shows why change comes so slowly in sports...MONEYBALL and SCORECASTING are must reads.

4th down calculator:

4th Down Calculator
 
#68
#68
Personally I love the concept. most of the successful coaches at any level are really aggressive. And one reason for that imo is the psychological impact on the game. Case and point...we had one of the most electrifying atmospheres I can remember last year against Florida. And yet we had two times we punted from deep in their territory. I was at the game and can never remember a situation where we witnessed life leaving the stadium and players as it did on those fourth and short plays. Just going for it instead of gaining 20 yards of field position would have been a win in and of itself.
That's the main reason I've been critical of butchs game management. He's so incredibly conservative. At times I honestly believe he wants to punt in 3rd down. Just so he can avoid it being his fault if the play were to backfire.
 
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#71
#71
It's 4th and 12 on your own 2 yard line.

Your punter just broke his leg. You have no one else to punt but your center.

Only problem, its the only center you have. No one else on your team has hands.

What do you do? Go for it?
 
#72
#72
"The job of the offense is to get a few first downs, then punt." Former UT head coach who shall remain unnamed.
 
#73
#73
It all depends on the personnel match ups. A lot of high schools have converted soccer players kicking the ball away for them. If your punter is garbage I can understand not punting a lot of the time. But if you get stopped on your side of the 50 then I can't fathom why anybody wouldn't punt it towards the sideline to at least try to flip the field a bit. Also depends on how many yards you have to get the first. If it's 4th and short and you're around midfield, I can see going for it. The high school game is a LOT different than the college and pro game and good coaching has a way bigger impact on that level.
 
#74
#74
Most coaches know that field position is huge in most games.

And I wouldn't call a "I'm never gonna punt" coach a better coach. I want a coach that knows matchups and can make decisions about the right thing to do, based on opponent and situation. It's much smarter to throw gross statistics out the door (all teams, all opponents, at all times) and say: "Our D has been stuffing these guys all day, but we've had trouble converting third downs. We're up by 6 with two minutes left. I think I'll trust our D to hold them." Instead of: "You know, considering all teams, at all times, stats say to try a 4th and 8 on my own 5 with two minutes and the lead."

The "I'll never punt" guy is lazy if he can't/won't make situational decisions.
 
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