Where does "class warfare" stop?

#51
#51
tvols75 said:
When looking at an issue, whether it is a Republican or Democrat idea, I like to look at the logic behind it. When analyzing something, I like to apply it to different areas of life and see how it really works.

Does class warfare get moved into our educational system?

Should a student that has worked hard for his/her grades use some of his GPA and spread it to those who 1. Haven't worked as hard or 2. Grew up in a less ideal situation than the kid with the higher GPA?

If not, why not if you support class warfare?

Where does class warfare stop?
Click to expand...

It stops when you have two crowds: the 75K and under crowd per family and the over 100 million crowd.
 
#52
#52
BigPapaVol said:
I laughed. Good stuff. It's almost as if we don't have a progressive tax system that sees the bottom half of earners in our country pay not one penny to the IRS. Almost, except that they don't, while the top 10% pays half.

If those that are hoarding truly didn't reinvest, there would no no private enterprise, but don't let that bother you. Private enterprise is just another place where all the bad rich guys force employees into slave labor, never pay anyone, and just get rich. Thank goodness we have all those against their own will laborers and hangers on to make these rich people money, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to did a drag on the economy.

Wonder where all the capital tied up in privately owned companies, by far the largest employer in our country, comes from? Must be from the conscripted workers doing their fair share for the lazy rich so they can shirk their obligation to the broke. Wish I had studied that angle, then my books wouldn't have that shareholders equity line that never seems to generate enough return and keeps my partners edgy. We'd probably have opted to let all the employees take up that line item. Be far more profitable that way and they might not feel enslaved as they do today.

Remind me, what is their obligation?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Agree.

I didn't know you owned your own business though???? I thought you were either a cpa or financial guy. Not that you can't have a cpa and own your own business ... I just didn't realize you did.
 
#53
#53
lumberjack4 said:
Your GPA example is dumb. Of course the person who studies hard and does well in school deserves the better grade; they earned it. But when it comes to money the only difference between being rich and poor is the willingness to steal it from someone. Obviously we need a 'fair' system in place to make sure that the victims of Capital are taken care of.
Click to expand...

People are getting it.

The bourgeoisie have been very busy in their role as Kaiser Sosay - convincing the world that "class warfare" doesn't exist. Or, when they really really have the Fox crowd drooling on their sofa, that the class warfare is mobilized from the ground up.

Nothing is further from the truth. The class war has been unremmiting, especially since the 1970s, and mobilized from the top down. Wages stagnant; more hours spent working; more family members in the workforce. And now we witness the bourgeoisie, in our own historic time, without shame or hesitation proclaim the need for "austerity." Capital requires further restrictions and constrictions on overall quality of life.

I have no idea about the GPA angle envisaged in the OP - it seems lost as last year's Easter Egg, but the class warfare is unremmiting from the forces of Capital. The system is in terminal decline, eating its own superstructure.

The new economy must focus on the needs of people (and this includes the needs of the natural world) and must put on a death barge and set alight the needs of Capital.
 
Last edited:
#54
#54
BigPapaVol said:
I laughed. Good stuff. It's almost as if we don't have a progressive tax system that sees the bottom half of earners in our country pay not one penny to the IRS. Almost, except that they don't, while the top 10% pays half. Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

How many times do I have to woodshed you with these numbers?
 
#55
#55
$535 million to Solyndra,
$1 billion in new federal loans yesterday to green energy companies
$600 million (est) in benefits paid to dead federal retirees over the last five years,
$132 million (including $16 muffins) paid by the Justice Dept in 2008 and 2009 for conferences,
$60 billion annually (very conservative unfortunately) in Medicare waste, fraud and abuse.
Etc, etc, etc - ad nauseam

I suppose for those 50% of Americans not paying federal income taxes, the examples of profligate spending cited above are of no concern to them but don't accuse me of being selfish because I'd like a modicum of accountability before I'll agree to an increased tax rate.
 
#56
#56
utgibbs said:
How many times do I have to woodshed you with these numbers?
Click to expand...

Are you a golfer? If so, I bet you're the guy that claims he's shot under par several times but no one that has ever played with you has seen you break 80. :birgits_giggle:
 
#57
#57
Unimane said:
My first paragraph was most certainly on point and I see we've gone to the "job creators" argument already, which is a poor justification. "Money hoarders" might be a better term for many, but the most realistic term might be "job creators as it benefits them", if you want to pull the job creator card nonsense. They are making record profits in many industries, yet these "job creators" have us at high unemployment because of their supposed fears of the markert and people still carry water for them.

They have us at high unemployment? Interesting causal link you see there.

The problem, essentially, is not that people are rich. I'm not jealous of people having money. It's the fact that there is the step and fetch mentality for the individuals who use the lower classes and the mechanisms society and government has created for their own profits, then express the idea that they have done this on their own merit.

Yes - it's one way, straight up exploitation. The rich only take and provide no valuable function other than being a focal point for anger.

People bend over and gladly take it from them because they are slaves to the system and hold the erroneous belief that they too can become part of this elite group. They are so willing to kowtow to these supposed "job creators" that they will allow all kinds of abuses, disproportionate taxation and vilification of the poor to happen so they too can reach this dream.

Yep - the rich will always be rich and the poor always poor. You've got it figured out; it's a grand scheme of pulling the football away right before those poor bastages swing their legs.

So, no, my statement wasn't even close to trash. I suppose it won't matter and you'll still advocate following the "job creators" off the economic cliff again and again. We have sold our soul to these mighty "job creators" and got very little in return.
Click to expand...

Maybe not trash but highly one-sided and not at all reflective of the true situation on the ground.
 
#58
#58
utgibbs said:
People are getting it.

The bourgeoisie have been very busy in their role as Kaiser Sosay - convincing the world that "class warfare" doesn't exist. Or, when they really really have the Fox crowd drooling on their sofa, that the class warfare is mobilized from the ground up.

Nothing is further from the truth. The class war has been unremmiting, especially since the 1970s, and mobilized from the top down. Wages stagnant; more hours spent working; more family members in the workforce. And now we witness the bourgeoisie, in our own historic time, without shame or hesitation proclaim the need for "austerity." Capital requires further restrictions and constrictions on overall quality of life.

I have no idea about the GPA angle envisaged in the OP - it seems lost as last year's Easter Egg, but the class warfare is unremmiting from the forces of Capital. The system is in terminal decline, eating its own superstructure.

The new economy must focus on the needs of people (and this includes the needs of the natural world) and must put on a death barge and set alight the needs of Capital.
Click to expand...

Let me ask you a question Gibbs.


I sell leads at 16 per lead. My staff must average 1.5 leads per hour or 1 every 40 minutes. I pay my full time staff 12.00 or and my new staff who is training 10.50. The cost of the full timer after I pay "my fair shair" of taxes and run payroll is about 13.12 per hour gross.

My rent is 28,900 per year gross lease. My phones cost roughly 18,000.

What should my staff be paid in your world??? What would be fair????

And what percentage of the gross profits should I be allowed to keep as personal income???

I'm asking for a real breakdown and hard numbers.
 
#59
#59
NEOCON said:
Let me ask you a question Gibbs.


I sell leads at 16 per lead. My staff must average 1.5 leads per hour or 1 every 40 minutes. I pay my full time staff 12.00 or and my new staff who is training 10.50. The cost of the full timer after I pay "my fair shair" of taxes and run payroll is about 13.12 per hour gross.

My rent is 28,900 per year gross lease. My phones cost roughly 18,000.

What should my staff be paid in your world??? What would be fair????

And what percentage of the gross profits should I be allowed to keep as personal income???

I'm asking for a real breakdown and hard numbers.
Click to expand...


Clearly you should pay them more, plus give them a fair share of the profits... as long as you continue to assume all the associated risks.
 
#60
#60
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Clearly you should pay them more, plus give them a fair share of the profits... as long as you continue to assume all the associated risks.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of the socialist guy at the Wisconsin rally that was complaining the owners of the restaurant he worked for got to decide what food the restaurant served.
 
#62
#62
volinbham said:
Reminds me of the socialist guy at the Wisconsin rally that was complaining the owners of the restaurant he worked for got to decide what food the restaurant served.
Click to expand...

My oldest daughter did the same last night. Didn't work out well there either.:)
 
#64
#64
BigPapaVol said:
I laughed. Good stuff. It's almost as if we don't have a progressive tax system that sees the bottom half of earners in our country pay not one penny to the IRS. Almost, except that they don't, while the top 10% pays half.

If those that are hoarding truly didn't reinvest, there would no no private enterprise, but don't let that bother you. Private enterprise is just another place where all the bad rich guys force employees into slave labor, never pay anyone, and just get rich. Thank goodness we have all those against their own will laborers and hangers on to make these rich people money, otherwise, we wouldn't be able to did a drag on the economy.

Wonder where all the capital tied up in privately owned companies, by far the largest employer in our country, comes from? Must be from the conscripted workers doing their fair share for the lazy rich so they can shirk their obligation to the broke. Wish I had studied that angle, then my books wouldn't have that shareholders equity line that never seems to generate enough return and keeps my partners edgy. We'd probably have opted to let all the employees take up that line item. Be far more profitable that way and they might not feel enslaved as they do today.

Remind me, what is their obligation?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...


I'm glad, though, you are willing to sacrifice the betterment of our society in order for the free market capitalism model to turn us into something resembling a third world country with it's inverted economic pyramid.

The gap between the higher level employees and the lower levels employees has been growing at exponential numbers, certainly beyond their value to society. What we are seeing is the demise of the middle class that made this country's economy so vibrant. If you want something resembling a third world country's, then, by all means, support small cabal of conglomerates overtaking the markets and consolidating their economic rule while the middle class morphs into the lower class.

If you want to believe all that free market Pollyanna crap, so be it. That free market concept has led this country to the brink of disaster time and again, only to be rescued from time to time by the more sane and healthy mixed market model.

As far as the obligations go, the obligation of the lower classes is to hold the rich accountable for their actions, exploitation of workers, skirting of ethical practices, receiving sweetheart tax deals, preferential treatment under the law, etc., etc. You know, the kind of stuff the "invisible hand" free market is supposed to take care of, but rarely does.

However, in some respects, I almost wonder if we are not arguing on the same level. You seem to infer about your business model, which I assume is a small business, unlike, say a Wal-Mart. If so, then, yes, I actually do think you are "job creator", as opposed to the larger corporations who are often more interested in raping the consumer and economy, yet get pissy when a worker making $30,000 pays 5-10% less of their salary on taxes.
 
#65
#65
Unimane said:
I'm glad, though, you are willing to sacrifice the betterment of our society in order for the free market capitalism model to turn us into something resembling a third world country with it's inverted economic pyramid.

The gap between the higher level employees and the lower levels employees has been growing at exponential numbers, certainly beyond their value to society. What we are seeing is the demise of the middle class that made this country's economy so vibrant. If you want something resembling a third world country's, then, by all means, support small cabal of conglomerates overtaking the markets and consolidating their economic rule while the middle class morphs into the lower class.

If you want to believe all that free market Pollyanna crap, so be it. That free market concept has led this country to the brink of disaster time and again, only to be rescued from time to time by the more sane and healthy mixed market model.

As far as the obligations go, the obligation of the lower classes is to hold the rich accountable for their actions, exploitation of workers, skirting of ethical practices, receiving sweetheart tax deals, preferential treatment under the law, etc., etc. You know, the kind of stuff the "invisible hand" free market is supposed to take care of, but rarely does.

However, in some respects, I almost wonder if we are not arguing on the same level. You seem to infer about your business model, which I assume is a small business, unlike, say a Wal-Mart. If so, then, yes, I actually do think you are "job creator", as opposed to the larger corporations who are often more interested in raping the consumer and economy, yet get pissy when a worker making $30,000 pays 5-10% less of their salary on taxes.
Click to expand...

Walmart rapes their customers? How by giving them low prices?

Have you also checked into Walamrt wages? They pay their people well.

Lastly, the difference in tax rate between a person making 30k and a person making 150k is not 5-10%. Not even close.

But hey, who needs reality.
 
#66
#66
Unimane said:
I'm glad, though, you are willing to sacrifice the betterment of our society in order for the free market capitalism model to turn us into something resembling a third world country with it's inverted economic pyramid.

You've provided zero evidence that moving from free market capitalism leads to betterment of our society. Historically, free market capitalism has a pretty good track record in our country.

The gap between the higher level employees and the lower levels employees has been growing at exponential numbers, certainly beyond their value to society. What we are seeing is the demise of the middle class that made this country's economy so vibrant. If you want something resembling a third world country's, then, by all means, support small cabal of conglomerates overtaking the markets and consolidating their economic rule while the middle class morphs into the lower class.

Can you point out how the wage gap has led to the "demise" of the middle class? What is the mechanism? How do you define demise? How do you determine someone's value to society - I'd like to see that calculus.

If you want to believe all that free market Pollyanna crap, so be it. That free market concept has led this country to the brink of disaster time and again, only to be rescued from time to time by the more sane and healthy mixed market model.

We haven't had a free market model in decades if you consider when the government steps in as a "healthy mixed market model". In fact, govt. intrusion into the market has been a pretty steady growth trend.

Would also be curious as to what a healthy mixed market model means - what is the role of govt. Is a Solyndra style investment part of that?

As far as the obligations go, the obligation of the lower classes is to hold the rich accountable for their actions, exploitation of workers, skirting of ethical practices, receiving sweetheart tax deals, preferential treatment under the law, etc., etc. You know, the kind of stuff the "invisible hand" free market is supposed to take care of, but rarely does.

Would you suggest that all people should be held likewise accountable or just the ones you deem rich (or exceeding their value to society)?

However, in some respects, I almost wonder if we are not arguing on the same level. You seem to infer about your business model, which I assume is a small business, unlike, say a Wal-Mart. If so, then, yes, I actually do think you are "job creator", as opposed to the larger corporations who are often more interested in raping the consumer and economy, yet get pissy when a worker making $30,000 pays 5-10% less of their salary on taxes.
Click to expand...

Wal-mart is raping the consumer and economy? Interesting.

I'm continually amazed at your hyperbole and lack of facts. I imagine you are working on your manifesto.
 
#67
#67
NEOCON said:
Let me ask you a question Gibbs.


I sell leads at 16 per lead. My staff must average 1.5 leads per hour or 1 every 40 minutes. I pay my full time staff 12.00 or and my new staff who is training 10.50. The cost of the full timer after I pay "my fair shair" of taxes and run payroll is about 13.12 per hour gross.

My rent is 28,900 per year gross lease. My phones cost roughly 18,000.

What should my staff be paid in your world??? What would be fair????

And what percentage of the gross profits should I be allowed to keep as personal income???

I'm asking for a real breakdown and hard numbers.
Click to expand...

It's not that hard. Fairness would dictate you should earn about seven times your lowest paid employee. There is some flexibility there, especially if you are generating lead yourself / involved in the labor process too. In other words, you could slide the scale up if you are being productive yourself.

Was "lead" just a substitute for "widget"?
 
Last edited:
#68
#68
Unimane said:
I'm glad, though, you are willing to sacrifice the betterment of our society in order for the free market capitalism model to turn us into something resembling a third world country with it's inverted economic pyramid.

The gap between the higher level employees and the lower levels employees has been growing at exponential numbers, certainly beyond their value to society. What we are seeing is the demise of the middle class that made this country's economy so vibrant. If you want something resembling a third world country's, then, by all means, support small cabal of conglomerates overtaking the markets and consolidating their economic rule while the middle class morphs into the lower class.

If you want to believe all that free market Pollyanna crap, so be it. That free market concept has led this country to the brink of disaster time and again, only to be rescued from time to time by the more sane and healthy mixed market model.

As far as the obligations go, the obligation of the lower classes is to hold the rich accountable for their actions, exploitation of workers, skirting of ethical practices, receiving sweetheart tax deals, preferential treatment under the law, etc., etc. You know, the kind of stuff the "invisible hand" free market is supposed to take care of, but rarely does.

However, in some respects, I almost wonder if we are not arguing on the same level. You seem to infer about your business model, which I assume is a small business, unlike, say a Wal-Mart. If so, then, yes, I actually do think you are "job creator", as opposed to the larger corporations who are often more interested in raping the consumer and economy, yet get pissy when a worker making $30,000 pays 5-10% less of their salary on taxes.
Click to expand...

People are getting it.
 
#69
#69
Unimane said:
I'm always amused by the accusations of "class warfare" that, essentially, work from the bottom against the top. Somehow, in this Randian wet dream, the vulnerable rich are the prey of the savage, lazy and evil masses. Yet, in our society, we have continually expanding gaps of wealth disparity while the same people benefiting greatly from our laws and financial practices are able to simultaneously play the victim in a brilliant ploy that has fooled millions in this country to vote against their own self interest. I have no idea why people who make millions by letting their investment money sit there, paying lower taxes than the average person for doing nothing, is better than a guy busting his hump digging ditches for practically nothing. I guess it works in a world where your value as a person equals your bank account, but I'm not seeing it.

As far as the GPA example, it's flawed like any example that tries to demonstrate the perfidy of the underclass. It comes down to the question "What is fair?" You can argue, in a strict sense, that the quality of the work equals your grade. However, I've seen numerous situations where "fair" is a relative term. Some students can afford tutors, others can't. Some students have parents that provide for them and get the free time to pursue their studies. Others have to provide for their families as teens and work for 8 hours after school. Some students have their parents available to them, while some have none or can even be homeless. The contingencies are endless.

So, again, what is fair? If you had a student on one side with two stable parents, nice home and the emotional support would she be a better, more worthy student than the one who has been abused by their parents/adult friend/etc (which happens more than people realize), are responsible for taking care of their brothers and sisters or any number of situations?

Ultimately, the GPA allegory is a nice, succinct and cute way to wrap a simplistic argument, but it fails to comprehend the vast complexities of the world we live within.
Click to expand...

This guy is getting it for sure. :good!:
 
#70
#70
utgibbs said:
It's not that hard. Fairness would dictate you should earn about seven times your lowest paid employee. There is some flexibility there, especially if you are generating lead yourself / involved in the labor process too. In other words, you could slide the scale up if you are being productive yourself.

Was "lead" just a substitute for "widget"?
Click to expand...

According to who?
 
#72
#72
Next thing u know gibbs will be praising kiribati community village and the role of the old men.....the unimane
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#75
#75
utgibbs said:
It's not that hard. Fairness would dictate you should earn about seven times your lowest paid employee. There is some flexibility there, especially if you are generating lead yourself / involved in the labor process too. In other words, you could slide the scale up if you are being productive yourself.

Was "lead" just a substitute for "widget"?
Click to expand...

How on earth did you come up with that number? Sounds completely arbitrary and highlights the notion that "fairness" is a completely subjective term.

EDIT: Beech beat me to it.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement

Back
Top