Where did life begin? (Merged)

[Orangeslice13]

I agree per context. Per his Nazarite vow, just to defend my contextual clues, he was also the guy that said that he would be a Jew to the Jews and a gentile to the Gentiles. He would be all things to all people that he may win some.

He also pointedly said that it was OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols, and wouldn't eat meat sacrificed to idols, so as not to stumble a brother.

In other words, he met people where they were so that he would have platform to minister to them. He asked Timothy to get a circumcision, while also writing the book of Galatians against the party of circumcision. Why? Because he knew that Timothy would be a stumbling block to the observant Jews he'd be trying to minister to.

I agree. Context. :hi:

That’s a large part of the problem with Paul.
The appearance of hypocrisy is tough for some people to get by.

Either the law is the definition of sin or it isn’t.
Paul is clear that it is.
Grace covers sin as all have sinned and fallen short......but can you live in sin......which is to reject the values of the Most High ......and still be one of G-ds people?
I’m not talking the oops sins either. I’m talking about the belief that I can do the things G-d calls sin, unrepentant and still have grace.
Each person has to answer that for themselves.
There are going to be two types of people shocked at judgement time. The legalistic who think their actions make them righteous and the lawless who Messiah rejects in Matt 7 with the words “depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I don’t know you “.


There’s a Big difference between saying you have faith and actually having it. Imo that’s what makes Paul so dangerous and what Peter means by “people misunderstand Paul to their destruction”.


Edit: ******this is a generalized statement and not aimed at anyone in anyway ********
A test I like to preform is this.

Can you defend your faith with the entire bible?
Can you defend your faith with the NT only?
Can you defend your faith using only the Torah, Prophets and Gospels?
Can you defend your faith with Only the Torah and Prophets?

If you don’t answer yes to all of the above you may have a problem.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Or you could simply state it. But why would those versions of Mark or any other account, be more creditable than older versions?

They’re not.
The oldest are closest to the original and therefore more accurate.
Many of the additional Vs don’t appear in copies until the 4-5 century. We have copies from as early as 80-100 CE.

 

[Orangeslice13]

And I’m out again.
Shalom Y’all

 

[BigO95]

They’re not.
The oldest are closest to the original and therefore more accurate.
Many of the additional Vs don’t appear in copies until the 4-5 century. We have copies from as early as 80-100 CE.

You must have the wrong Greek text too.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You must have the wrong Greek text too.

You do know that some were written in common Greek and others a more traditional form of Greek.

I’m not sure which is right or wrong but I’m going with the older copies.

When in doubt throw it out.
(Isn’t that the standard the KJV translators used?)

 

[BigO95]

You do know that some were written in common Greek and others a more traditional form of Greek.

I’m not sure which is right or wrong but I’m going with the older copies.

When in doubt throw it out.
(Isn’t that the standard the KJV translators used?)

I challenge you to check out Professor Riplingers video that I posted. Its great information and you may learn something.

 

[Weezer]

I feel so cheated. I thought this thread would be Slice explaining the birds and the bees. How am I ever going to learn where babies come from?

 

[BigO95]

I feel so cheated. I thought this thread would be Slice explaining the birds and the bees. How am I ever going to learn where babies come from?

Are you sure that he knows about that yet?

 

[Orange_Crush]

That’s a large part of the problem with Paul.
The appearance of hypocrisy is tough for some people to get by.

Either the law is the definition of sin or it isn’t.
Paul is clear that it is.
Grace covers sin as all have sinned and fallen short......but can you live in sin......which is to reject the values of the Most High ......and still be one of G-ds people?
I’m not talking the oops sins either. I’m talking about the belief that I can do the things G-d calls sin, unrepentant and still have grace.
Each person has to answer that for themselves.
There are going to be two types of people shocked at judgement time. The legalistic who think their actions make them righteous and the lawless who Messiah rejects in Matt 7 with the words “depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I don’t know you “.


There’s a Big difference between saying you have faith and actually having it. Imo that’s what makes Paul so dangerous and what Peter means by “people misunderstand Paul to their destruction”.


Edit: ******this is a generalized statement and not aimed at anyone in anyway ********
A test I like to preform is this.

Can you defend your faith with the entire bible?
Can you defend your faith with the NT only?
Can you defend your faith using only the Torah, Prophets and Gospels?
Can you defend your faith with Only the Torah and Prophets?

If you don’t answer yes to all of the above you may have a problem.

I'm not so sure Paul is so simple in saying that "the Law" is the definition of sin. According to God via Peter and the sheet in Acts, I'm sure that Peter and God would agree that it's not so simple as "read the Levitical law" and you'll know what sin is.

And the "hypocrisy" angle with Paul only holds water if you smuggle in the idea that the Levitical law is the definition of sin. Otherwise, Paul is merely limiting the freedoms God gave him, at times, in order to reach those who were still under bondage.

Just some thoughts on it.

 

[Septic]

Dr. James Jones pastor of the Harriman Baptist Tabernacle In Harriman Tennessee has some very good information concerning the history of the Bible. I am not certain if they have a website but if you could get ahold of brother Jones, he can greatly help you concerning the Bible and its authenticity.

Can you ask him to join Volnation?

 

[Septic]

I feel so cheated. I thought this thread would be Slice explaining the birds and the bees. How am I ever going to learn where babies come from?

I wonder if Adam and Eve had belly buttons?

 

[Orangeslice13]

I'm not so sure Paul is so simple in saying that "the Law" is the definition of sin. According to God via Peter and the sheet in Acts, I'm sure that Peter and God would agree that it's not so simple as "read the Levitical law" and you'll know what sin is.

And the "hypocrisy" angle with Paul only holds water if you smuggle in the idea that the Levitical law is the definition of sin. Otherwise, Paul is merely limiting the freedoms God gave him, at times, in order to reach those who were still under bondage.

Just some thoughts on it.

Edit: not Paul but that shouldn’t matter

If 1 John says sin is violating the law what law is he referring to?

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

[Orangeslice13]

In Romans
Paul speaking of the Law.

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Again the question is what is the law?

There is clearly no condemnation for those in union with Yeshua Messiah. But the definition of sin remains.

Paul says we don’t sin so that grace may abound. So how is someone going to know what sin is without the list of rules.


*****note Jeremiah’s prophecy of the law written on our hearts is not fulfilled. As evidence there are 40k denominations. People still study the word. You and I are having this debate.

 

[The Ron Mexico]

*****note Jeremiah’s prophecy of the law written on our hearts is not fulfilled. As evidence there are 40k denominations. People still study the word. You and I are having this debate.

Mine is the right one.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Edit: not Paul but that shouldn’t matter

If 1 John says sin is violating the law what law is he referring to?

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

That's easy.

What led into your quote from John...

1 John 2:

7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. 8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. 9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

What your quote leads into...

1 John 3:
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.

You are saying that John defines the Levitival law as the standard for sin, yet uses Cain as example of such lawlessness? Who lived before the Levitical law?

John... Who was standing there when Jesus said the laws of love fulfill the entirety of the law. Who was there the night Jesus was arrested and told them that love would be the distinguishing factor of Messiah's disciples.

Not Levitical observance. Love.

Paul... Galatians 5:22-23. The fruits of the Spirit: Love... against such things there is no law.

You and I sin every day I know mine more than you can possibly imagine. But it has little or nothing to do with Sabbaths, circumcision, dietary decisions or mixed fabrics. It has to do with every time I love myself more than God, or fail to treat another with love.

 

[BigO95]

I wonder if Adam and Eve had belly buttons?

Why did the Lord make poison ivy? :crazy:

 

[Orangeslice13]

You and I sin every day I know mine more than you can possibly imagine. But it has little or nothing to do with Sabbaths, circumcision, dietary decisions or mixed fabrics. It has to do with every time I love myself more than God, or fail to treat another with love.

So I have a neighbor (this is a real example). His business practices are unethical at best. Cheats on his wife. And spends a lot of time telling me how in love with God He is. His favorite words are freedom in Christ. Talks a real good game too.
We can’t judge his heart cause only God knows right?

 

[UT-Rex]

That’s a large part of the problem with Paul.
The appearance of hypocrisy is tough for some people to get by.

Either the law is the definition of sin or it isn’t.
Paul is clear that it is.
Grace covers sin as all have sinned and fallen short......but can you live in sin......which is to reject the values of the Most High ......and still be one of G-ds people?
I’m not talking the oops sins either. I’m talking about the belief that I can do the things G-d calls sin, unrepentant and still have grace.
Each person has to answer that for themselves.
There are going to be two types of people shocked at judgement time. The legalistic who think their actions make them righteous and the lawless who Messiah rejects in Matt 7 with the words “depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I don’t know you “.


There’s a Big difference between saying you have faith and actually having it. Imo that’s what makes Paul so dangerous and what Peter means by “people misunderstand Paul to their destruction”.


Edit: ******this is a generalized statement and not aimed at anyone in anyway ********
A test I like to preform is this.

Can you defend your faith with the entire bible?
Can you defend your faith with the NT only?
Can you defend your faith using only the Torah, Prophets and Gospels?
Can you defend your faith with Only the Torah and Prophets?

If you don’t answer yes to all of the above you may have a problem.

Not sure what you're trying to show,

as Peter equated Paul's letters as inspired just as are "the other Scriptures" / i.e. the Old Testament (2 Peter 3:16) and "All Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (i.e. All Scripture / N + OT / New + Old covenant is profitable for defending faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth -- disciples are not really challenged, Scripturally, to defend our faith will less than ALL).

 

[Orangeslice13]

Not Levitical observance. Love.

And this is irrelevant to our conversation.
We are not discussing salvation. That we agreed on
We are discussing what standard we should live by.
The definition of sin.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Not sure what you're trying to show,

as Peter equated Paul's letters as inspired just as are "the other Scriptures" / i.e. the Old Testament (2 Peter 3:16) and "All Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (i.e. All Scripture / N + OT / New + Old covenant is profitable for defending faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth -- disciples are not really challenged, Scripturally, to defend our faith will less than ALL).

It’s about consistency.
If you believe God to be the same yesterday today and forever then you should be able to defend your faith the way the 12 did. As they had no NT or Gospels.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Not sure what you're trying to show,

as Peter equated Paul's letters as inspired just as are "the other Scriptures" / i.e. the Old Testament (2 Peter 3:16) and "All Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (i.e. All Scripture / N + OT / New + Old covenant is profitable for defending faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth -- disciples are not really challenged, Scripturally, to defend our faith will less than ALL).

Let me put it another way.
The vs you quoted from peter says the ignorant twist Paul’s words to their distruction. He didn’t say stupid...he said ignorant or unlearned in some versions. Peter is saying that if you don’t study Torah you likely won’t understand Paul

 

[Orange_Crush]

In Romans
Paul speaking of the Law.

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Again the question is what is the law?

There is clearly no condemnation for those in union with Yeshua Messiah. But the definition of sin remains.

Paul says we don’t sin so that grace may abound. So how is someone going to know what sin is without the list of rules.


*****note Jeremiah’s prophecy of the law written on our hearts is not fulfilled. As evidence there are 40k denominations. People still study the word. You and I are having this debate.

Paul was writing to a Jewish audience, speaking specifically to the Jewish Torah. In Romans 2, he said that the law (Torah) was given to Israel and gentiles were given their conscience so that both equally deserve the condemnation that their sin earns.

Romans 2:12 -- For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Paul LITERALLY just said that sin is more than breaking the Torah!

Paul was writing to a group of Jewish believers, trying to get them to understand the purpose of the Levitical law, which was to prove the one under it guilty. He would go on to proclaim that we no longer be slaves to sin, nor slaves to the law, but to instead walk by the Spirit, just as He said in Galatians.

Walk by the Spirit and you won't need the law. Bear the fruits of the Spirit and you won't need the law. As John said, love your brother and there is no stumbling or lawlessness.

 

[Orange_Crush]

And this is irrelevant to our conversation.
We are not discussing salvation. That we agreed on
We are discussing what standard we should live by.
The definition of sin.

Slice... I just bookended your quote with the context. Love as the commandment. Not a new law, but the original law, the law that went all the way back to Cain. And now you claim it's irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Wait......who the heck is UT-Rex?
Has he been around and I just missed it?



It’s nice to meet you Rex. If my answer seemed short I apologize. I answered you like I would the other dumbasses (me included) that hang out here.


That’s right. I don’t always read screen names

 

[Orange_Crush]

It’s about consistency.
If you believe God to be the same yesterday today and forever then you should be able to defend your faith the way the 12 did. As they had no NT or Gospels.

Yes. He is.

Hosea 6:6 -- For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Psalm 51: 16For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Isaiah 58:Shout the message!
Don’t hold back.
Say to my people Israel:
You’ve sinned! You’ve turned
against the Lord.
2 Day after day, you worship him
and seem eager to learn
his teachings.
You act like a nation
that wants to do right
by obeying his laws.
You ask him about justice,
and say you enjoy
worshiping the Lord.

3 You wonder why the Lord
pays no attention
when you go without eating
and act humble.
But on those same days
that you give up eating,
you think only of yourselves[a]
and abuse your workers.
4 You even get angry
and ready to fight.
No wonder God won’t listen
to your prayers!

5 Do you think the Lord
wants you to give up eating
and to act as humble
as a bent-over bush?
Or to dress in sackcloth
and sit in ashes?
Is this really what he wants
on a day of worship?

6 I’ll tell you
what it really means
to worship the Lord.
Remove the chains of prisoners
who are chained unjustly.
Free those who are abused!
7 Share your food with everyone
who is hungry;
share your home
with the poor and homeless.
Give clothes to those in need;
don’t turn away your relatives.

His standard has always been love. He gave the law to Israel to show them that they fail it.

But it has always been love. He never changed just His dealing with us when we received His Son and Spirit. He took us out from under the tutor (law) and placed us in His power.