Where did life begin? (Merged)

Do you believe we have a creator, aka "God"?

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#1,926
#1,926
marcusluvsvols said:
Lol. Hilarious.

I would like to have lunch with both of you. I haven't been to chatt. Since kindergarten at Red Banks Elementary. Family moved after that. I find your brand of Judaism fascinating. Its like half jew/half protestant. Our beliefs are quite similar. I have also worked in either construction or remodeling for 25 years, and do many of the same jobs as you. For the last 8 years I have been a superintendent, but I still do kitchen and baths, and room additions on the side. I have access to a large pool of talented amigos, and that helps because my body cant do as much as it used to since the back surgeries. My FIL has been remodeling for 40 years, and I still help him when I can as well. He is very talented at built ins and cabinets,as well as custom painting. Anybody can roll paint on a wall. He can cut perfectly straight lines with both hands and paint a room faster than i can with a helper. Sadly, I think you and I are a dying breed. I never see white or black teens learning a trade.never. its all latino...
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Where do you live now?
 
#1,927
#1,927
distrovol said:
I believe God values all human life equally, both believers and non believers, which is the crux of my disagreement with you. Grace is a gift you either accept or reject. Gods revealed nature suggests he would prefer all people to accept that gift, but the reality is not all will due to free will. So, even though he values the non believers as well, he allows the consequences of that rejection of his gift of grace.
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Is it truly a choice for you to accept/reject if god created you knowing what you would choose? How do you reconcile free will with the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent and personal creator? Why does god create humanity knowing 99% will spend eternity in suffering?
 
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#1,928
#1,928
Darth_Shiveman said:
Not trying to say you’re condescending. I understand these arguments aren’t really your own and backed by and borrowed from classical theologians.

What I’m saying is that many classical theologians define and use those terms disingenuously. Most classical theology (regardless of religion) exists as attempts to come to terms with or do away with the things that just don’t seem right in any given belief system. Their works exist because they start from the standpoint that their underlying beliefs can’t be wrong and then they move from there.


I’m also not trying to be condescending here or pile on Christianity. I’ve studied Buddhism and many classical Buddhist theologians do the same thing. I’d expect nothing less from classical theologians of any faith.



I’m sure this is the case in classical orthodoxy and on paper. But it’s almosy certainly not the case in the real world.


But surely the fact that you believe you’ve found the correct belief system to get you to the good place helps a bit, amiright?
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First let me say that i appreciate the way you post. Thank you for being kind and respectful while disagreeing. This earns much respect from myself and others who post here. Hope i come across the same way.

I only speak to your last paragraph. I am a sinner, saved by grace. I still sin every day and it grieves me, and it grieves God. I deserve Hell, whatever that entails be it fire or just separation from God, and having studied the Bible im still not sure which it is. Either way its terrible. Even though I deserve Hell, I am going to Heaven based solely on Grace. Grace is unmerited favor.

It brings me no comfort to know that I have a place in Heaven when my 25 year old little brother put a 9mm pistol in his mouth 2 weeks ago, and I strongly believe that even though he is one of only 3 family members I have ever strongly witnessed to...he rejected Christ as his savior..and in the 2 or 3 minutes he had locked in his bedroom before his live in girlfriend was able to bust in the room I dont think he found Grace. The Bible says, Jesus speaking, that even men who would say to him that they did know him, and had even cast out demons and performed great works in his name...because they lived lives of sin and never truly repented (turned away,not said sorry) that Jesus would say they never knew them...and they would be damned. As far as my other brother(agnostic) and I know, my littlest brother never claimed to know Christ at all, nor attended church,prayed etc. Where does that leave him?

I assure you that my salvation gives me zero comfort when i think about my baby brother in Hell. It was my job to protect him, and I failed miserably. I would say pastor OC feels very similar towards other folks headed to Hell, and his own plight doesnt offer much comfort. A pastor is a shepherd of men..they give their whole lives to trying to save people from Hell. Real pastors anyway. I have talked on the phone enough with Alan to know he is the real deal.

Hope this post didnt come across the wrong way. I mean nothing but love and respect. This was just what i felt when I read the last paragraph. Best wishes to you and yours.
 
#1,929
#1,929
Orange_Crush said:
The problem for those using this example against God is... What makes it "valid", as you said?

They never get around to making it a valid argument. They just play on (fallen) human preferences and hope that the conversation stays at the level of what we (fallen) humans think to be acceptable--let's say "preferable".

(1) God created the universe for the purpose He has for the Universe, so He had the right to create it as He saw fit.

(2) The accusers in the room are very liberal in telling us what's "right" and "wrong" for God to do. They're the first to stand up and tell us when God is acting unethical and immoral.... But this is only after informing the world that morality is relative and there is no objective standard to it.

So, all they are actually saying when they accuse God is that He didn't do things according to their preference. Well, duh.

(3) We will take PKT's example since it's a recent example. PKT just said (yesterday?) in this very thread that the great stumbling block for most people per Christian theology is that a child rapist could repent and be forgiven, yet Gandhi would be in Hell right now.

That's an appeal to justice. PKT and Septic would be standing on their view of justice there. They want justice, not grace.

Scripture tells us that every person who ever goes to Hell is judged based on God's justice, and it is just for them to be there. Further, scripture tells us that every person who is saved is saved by grace.

So, the argument seems to be switched now, instead of wanting justice, they all want everyone to get grace. You see? Grace is a stumbling block when it's convenient to stumble on it. And justice is a stumbling block when it's convenient to stumble on it.

So, the unpopular answer, yet the answer I believe to be true? I don't understand exactly how it all works. As part of my faith, I trust God's judgment. Anyone who goes to hell is there because of what they've done. Anyone who is saved is saved despite themselves, based solely on God's grace. Theologically, it's a bit ridiculous to say that God is forced to issue His grace to whom, and in ways that, He chooses not to.

The accuser's belief in a relative morality makes the entire conversation a non-starter if they choose to be honest about their beliefs and actually live those beliefs out to their logical conclusions. (If morality is relative and mere preferences, then they have no platform to say their "preference" is more valid than God's "preference".)
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I take it you've never looked at the case for secular objective morality? There's practically a whole area of philosophy dedicated to it...

Where has anyone advocated for moral relativism ITT?

Also, how is your system objective? God says "thou shall not kill," but then commands people to kill, or kills himself. So, is killing wrong? Or is it okay when God says to? If so, how is that objective morality?
 
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#1,931
#1,931
marcusluvsvols said:
First let me say that i appreciate the way you post. Thank you for being kind and respectful while disagreeing. This earns much respect from myself and others who post here. Hope i come across the same way.

I only speak to your last paragraph. I am a sinner, saved by grace. I still sin every day and it grieves me, and it grieves God. I deserve Hell, whatever that entails be it fire or just separation from God, and having studied the Bible im still not sure which it is. Either way its terrible. Even though I deserve Hell, I am going to Heaven based solely on Grace. Grace is unmerited favor.

It brings me no comfort to know that I have a place in Heaven when my 25 year old little brother put a 9mm pistol in his mouth 2 weeks ago, and I strongly believe that even though he is one of only 3 family members I have ever strongly witnessed to...he rejected Christ as his savior..and in the 2 or 3 minutes he had locked in his bedroom before his live in girlfriend was able to bust in the room I dont think he found Grace. The Bible says, Jesus speaking, that even men who would say to him that they did know him, and had even cast out demons and performed great works in his name...because they lived lives of sin and never truly repented (turned away,not said sorry) that Jesus would say they never knew them...and they would be damned. As far as my other brother(agnostic) and I know, my littlest brother never claimed to know Christ at all, nor attended church,prayed etc. Where does that leave him?

I assure you that my salvation gives me zero comfort when i think about my baby brother in Hell. It was my job to protect him, and I failed miserably. I would say pastor OC feels very similar towards other folks headed to Hell, and his own plight doesnt offer much comfort. A pastor is a shepherd of men..they give their whole lives to trying to save people from Hell. Real pastors anyway. I have talked on the phone enough with Alan to know he is the real deal.

Hope this post didnt come across the wrong way. I mean nothing but love and respect. This was just what i felt when I read the last paragraph. Best wishes to you and yours.
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Marcus, I will put you on my prayer list and try by the grace of God to pray for you every day. I am very sorry for your loss. I've had to preach the funeral of several of my lost family and friends and it makes my heart just melt within.
Hang in there and help the rest of your family.
 
#1,933
#1,933
The Ron Mexico said:
I did watch it. In fact, I watched it as soon as you posted it.

I just felt the need to add exclamation points to poke fun at our esteemed colleague that is a Baptist minister.

My thoughts on the content of the video are:
1: I believe they make several good points with regard to asking to see evidence.
2: No group is above criticism. Be it religious or otherwise.
3: I cannot call myself an atheist because I think there are far too many questions left unanswered. The term “supernatural” is something we apply when we don’t understand something. We may someday understand those things scientifically and then they will just become “natural”.
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Alrighty now, you need more excitement in your life!!!!!!!!!¡!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#1,939
#1,939
Wafflestomper said:
I take it you've never looked at the case for secular objective morality? There's practically a whole area of philosophy dedicated to it...

Where has anyone advocated for moral relativism ITT?

Also, how is your system objective? God says "thou shall not kill," but then commands people to kill, or kills himself. So, is killing wrong? Or is it okay when God says to? If so, how is that objective morality?
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I have, and have found them wanting. I've actually read several attempts; if you have a specific one in mind, reference that one and we could discuss. Otherwise, you're hiding behind vagueness.

I'm not sure anyone has referenced it in these threads, but since I referenced PKT specifically as example, and unless he has changed his professed beliefs... (What you may not know is that most of us have a long history in here. The ones who have made the criticism--and to whom I have responded--have made such claims.)

Again, if you want to air the specifics of beliefs you own asm opposed to arguing from vaguness...?

I guess I could turn your own question on itself and ask if you've ever studied theistic philosophies on morality. It may answer your question.

But I don't want to be hypocritical and do what I accused you of doing, so I'll just point out that my response didn't hinge on objective morality. It answered the criticism through the lense of the accuser's relative philosophy. So... Your question seems to be a diversion from the discussion as opposed to adding anything to it.

Was that an accident, or by design?

In short, I posited that the criticism has historically come from people who also propose relative morality so it's hypocritical for them to accuse God, as it's more similar to claiming chocolate is better than vanilla, and the opponent is morally wrong for liking vanilla.

If you want to bring a specific argument for objective morality sans-God, I'm open to discussing that specific argument, but I'm not interested in debating every/any conceivable argument.

I didn't hinge my rebuttal on objective reality, so don't see a reason to debate it in this context. If you want to debate it, it would be fun for a few minutes, but since I am not trying to prove it, it would be little more than a diversion.
 
#1,941
#1,941
marcusluvsvols said:
First let me say that i appreciate the way you post. Thank you for being kind and respectful while disagreeing. This earns much respect from myself and others who post here. Hope i come across the same way.

I only speak to your last paragraph. I am a sinner, saved by grace. I still sin every day and it grieves me, and it grieves God. I deserve Hell, whatever that entails be it fire or just separation from God, and having studied the Bible im still not sure which it is. Either way its terrible. Even though I deserve Hell, I am going to Heaven based solely on Grace. Grace is unmerited favor.

It brings me no comfort to know that I have a place in Heaven when my 25 year old little brother put a 9mm pistol in his mouth 2 weeks ago, and I strongly believe that even though he is one of only 3 family members I have ever strongly witnessed to...he rejected Christ as his savior..and in the 2 or 3 minutes he had locked in his bedroom before his live in girlfriend was able to bust in the room I dont think he found Grace. The Bible says, Jesus speaking, that even men who would say to him that they did know him, and had even cast out demons and performed great works in his name...because they lived lives of sin and never truly repented (turned away,not said sorry) that Jesus would say they never knew them...and they would be damned. As far as my other brother(agnostic) and I know, my littlest brother never claimed to know Christ at all, nor attended church,prayed etc. Where does that leave him?

I assure you that my salvation gives me zero comfort when i think about my baby brother in Hell. It was my job to protect him, and I failed miserably. I would say pastor OC feels very similar towards other folks headed to Hell, and his own plight doesnt offer much comfort. A pastor is a shepherd of men..they give their whole lives to trying to save people from Hell. Real pastors anyway. I have talked on the phone enough with Alan to know he is the real deal.

Hope this post didnt come across the wrong way. I mean nothing but love and respect. This was just what i felt when I read the last paragraph. Best wishes to you and yours.
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Marcus. I'm very sorry to hear this, but thank you for sharing. I grew up in Seymour and still have family there... though recently lost my Dad just a few weeks ago. I moved away after college many years ago, but still get back to the area fairly often. The odds are you and I may share some friends.

You and your family are in my prayers.
 
#1,942
#1,942
marcusluvsvols said:
First let me say that i appreciate the way you post. Thank you for being kind and respectful while disagreeing. This earns much respect from myself and others who post here. Hope i come across the same way.

I only speak to your last paragraph. I am a sinner, saved by grace. I still sin every day and it grieves me, and it grieves God. I deserve Hell, whatever that entails be it fire or just separation from God, and having studied the Bible im still not sure which it is. Either way its terrible. Even though I deserve Hell, I am going to Heaven based solely on Grace. Grace is unmerited favor.

It brings me no comfort to know that I have a place in Heaven when my 25 year old little brother put a 9mm pistol in his mouth 2 weeks ago, and I strongly believe that even though he is one of only 3 family members I have ever strongly witnessed to...he rejected Christ as his savior..and in the 2 or 3 minutes he had locked in his bedroom before his live in girlfriend was able to bust in the room I dont think he found Grace. The Bible says, Jesus speaking, that even men who would say to him that they did know him, and had even cast out demons and performed great works in his name...because they lived lives of sin and never truly repented (turned away,not said sorry) that Jesus would say they never knew them...and they would be damned. As far as my other brother(agnostic) and I know, my littlest brother never claimed to know Christ at all, nor attended church,prayed etc. Where does that leave him?

I assure you that my salvation gives me zero comfort when i think about my baby brother in Hell. It was my job to protect him, and I failed miserably. I would say pastor OC feels very similar towards other folks headed to Hell, and his own plight doesnt offer much comfort. A pastor is a shepherd of men..they give their whole lives to trying to save people from Hell. Real pastors anyway. I have talked on the phone enough with Alan to know he is the real deal.

Hope this post didnt come across the wrong way. I mean nothing but love and respect. This was just what i felt when I read the last paragraph. Best wishes to you and yours.
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That sucks man, sorry to hear that.
 
#1,943
#1,943
You listen to marcus offline and you realize one thing. He's the real deal. Much love and many prayers, marcus. Call me this afternoon.
 
#1,948
#1,948
Orange_Crush said:
I'm not Big095, but I've always thought it would be a hoot (and infuriating) to only respond with scriptural references. lol
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When the fella I saw Jesus in was witnessing to me all he would give me was scripture. When I would bring my sin up to him and try to excuse it he would just say the Bible says so and give me the verse. Drove me absolutely Bonkers but it led to my salvation! ! Exclation points just for Ron!!!
 
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#1,950
#1,950
BigO95 said:
After all Crush, what God says is really all that matters anyway.
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Yah. But it's also our job to think deeply on it, how it intersects all aspects of life, and then then be able to speak about it, so (as you well know), we need to be able to have conversations that consist of more than just Bible quotes.

I usually am only tempted to relegate conversations to Bible quotes when those conversations are had with trolls.

GV ain't that. He's good people.
 
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