Where did life begin? (Merged)

Do you believe we have a creator, aka "God"?


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So, the mere unbelief of a metaphysical concept is worse than being a serial murderer, serial rapist, or child predator?

It's funny that despite people mouthing off such lunacy without understanding the gravity of what they are truly saying, it seems to me that, in actuality, the religious person, like the irreligious person, is way more outraged, incensed, and horrified at the latter than the former.

I wonder why that is.

Since this post seems to be the source of so much confusion and illogical rabbit trails, I will offer some thoughts on it.

Did Jesus say that all other sins are considered less heinous? More acceptable? Or did he say that all of those sins could be forgiven?

The context dictates a difference in forgiveness. Not moral acceptance.

PKT, in all due respect. You've attributed what isn't there.
 
Your assertion is that he didn't change the definition of christian, my response is that he didn't need to. Christians, as I understand it are still Christians even if the screw up from time to time. No?

Further, from a puritanical standpoint there isn't a sliding scale of sin. IOW stealing doesn't merit a stiffer heavenly punishment that lying.

Also, the link was for your benefit since you seem to be whiffing on the application.

This from the guy who lambasted Christians for a lack of agreement. lol Don't you think you should be dealing with istro's argument?

And my definition of a True Scotsman is correct.

When a universal (“all”, “every”, etc.) claim is refuted, rather than conceding the point or meaningfully revising the claim, the claim is altered by going from universal to specific, and failing to give any objective criteria for the specificity.

I didn't need your benefit. Learn to go to better sources when seeking examples.
 
Perhaps you could go back and show where distro changed his definition of what a Christian is. If he did, I apologize for mis-characterizing you. If he didn't, then you can't have a Scotsman fallacy, as the literal definition of such a fallacy is to have changed the definition ad hoc.

(And I'm sure you could find innumerable bad examples of such a fallacy on the internet. The fact that you're having to search out examples may be indicative that you need to grasp the definition of the fallacy as opposed to asking others to think for you.)

Note: I think distro took a couple of wrong turns in the discussion, so I don't agree with him. But I also can't see where he changed his definition of what a Christian is, and he's said where he gets his definition, which would allay concerns of ad hoc-ism, so... Like I said...

Have a good day.

I would really like to know where I did, as I am an amature at this and may screw it up from time to time. I welcome correction from another more learned person.
 
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I would really like to know where I did, as I am an amature at this and may screw it up from time to time. I welcome correction from another more learned person.

I don't consider myself smarter or more learned. I just believe that Christianity is filled with people who have sinned and people who sin every day. Though I agree that the church is filled with non-Christians that claim to be Christians.

If you started with the above definition and then changed it to protect the debate, then you are indeed guilty of the fallacy that Septic accuses (but I don't know where you started so can't say you've changed it). If you disagree with the above definition, then you and I have a fundamental disagreement on theology.

I posted my response to PKT's criticism above.

Note: I believe that Christians should be on a trajectory that decreases the works of the flesh and increases in the fruits of the Spirit--also referred to as sanctification. So, we should see a trajectory of true character change in the true Christian.
 
This from the guy who lambasted Christians for a lack of agreement. lol Don't you think you should be dealing with istro's argument?

And my definition of a True Scotsman is correct.



I didn't need your benefit. Learn to go to better sources when seeking examples.

Lambasted? Is that victim speak for "asked"?

Your understanding of definition of the fallacy isn't nearly as important as your inability to apply it correctly.

I stand corrected on the Scotsman fallacy, no 'true' christian is capable of murder, rape or any other sin because there are no true Christians. A truly bizarre argument to make from a gaggle of folks who imply that they are in fact Christians. :thumbsup:
 
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This from the guy who lambasted Christians for a lack of agreement. lol Don't you think you should be dealing with istro's argument?

And my definition of a True Scotsman is correct.



I didn't need your benefit. Learn to go to better sources when seeking examples.

Thanks for using that example. It's relevant in that the universal to specific is as simple as the migration from "christian" to "true Christian". This is the fundamental base of the fallacy.

Here, I've included the complete quote you used:

When a universal ("all", "every", etc.) claim is refuted, rather than conceding the point or meaningfully revising the claim, the claim is altered by going from universal to specific, and failing to give any objective criteria for the specificity.

John: Members of the UbaTuba White Men's Club are upstanding citizens of the community.
Marvin: Then why are there so many of these members in jail?
John: They were never true UbaTuba White Men's Club members.
Marvin: What's a true UbaTuba White Men's Club member?
John: Those who don't go to jail.

The application of the fallacy doesn't change by substituting a couple of words

John: Members of Christianity are upstanding citizens of the community.
Marvin: Then why are there so many of these members in murderin' and rapin'?
John: They were never true Christians.
Marvin: What's a true Christian?
John: Those who don't rape and murder.
 
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No reasonable person would believe that a person who committed those kinds of acts would be a practicing Christian. While it might be technically possible to do such a terrible thing, have a change of heart, and dedicate the rest of your life in service to Christ, but I can't think of an example. So taking that ultra rare exception and holding it up as though rapists and serial murderers are better than unbelievers in the eyes of Christians is dubious and a gross mischaraterization of the faith.

I believe this is the contested comment. I do not believed I ever defined what a Christian is, so I could not have changed the definition. This was in response to the universal assertion (that OC quoted) that all Christians value rapists and murderers above non-believers.
 
I see.

So you're saying Christians that sin aren't and can't be defined as Christians? My understanding was that there was no man without sin. This is a game changer.

If that is the case, I capitulate.

I just don’t understand the need to run down others faith. (As seen by Christians and atheist alike. I know I quoted you but I’m not calling you out. You’re someone I disagree with on things but tend to have a similar personality. I guess I’m saying I like you).
I really try to share what I believe when asked without condemnation on others who disagree.

I think an honest search and conclusion should be respected even when they disagree with me.




Having said that....you’re a problem....you’re a real real problem
 
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I just don’t understand the need to run down others faith. (As seen by Christians and atheist alike. I know I quoted you but I’m not calling you out. You’re someone I disagree with on things but tend to have a similar personality. I guess I’m saying I like you).
I really try to share what I believe when asked without condemnation on others who disagree.

I think an honest search and conclusion should be respected even when they disagree with me.




Having said that....you’re a problem....you’re a real real problem


What am I "running down"? We're talking about the technical points of and application of the details of an argument.

The irony is that this forum is a full litter box of the "running down" the closely held beliefs of others. It's bewildering to me why people believe that "faith" should somehow be off limits to questioning. If answering for the extraordinary claims is inconvenient or uncomfortable - sorry.
 
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I just don’t understand the need to run down others faith. (As seen by Christians and atheist alike. I know I quoted you but I’m not calling you out. You’re someone I disagree with on things but tend to have a similar personality. I guess I’m saying I like you).
I really try to share what I believe when asked without condemnation on others who disagree.

I think an honest search and conclusion should be respected even when they disagree with me.




Having said that....you’re a problem....you’re a real real problem

I don't get this. If Septic and all us others heathens were running around in every thread searching out believers to ridicule it would be one thing. To my knowledge, I don't think anybody is doing that. Not one.

Look at the title of this thread and then look at the discussion it generates. If you can't handle a place at the grown up table feel free to ignore the thread. Otherwise get over the victim complex and contribute.

JMO...of course.
 
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Personally, I don't know why anyone bothers answering any of your questions since you've proudly proclaimed on here that you are a troll who just posts to elicit responses.

Pearls and swine... etc... Yadda yadda yadda...

Mods: can you sticky the above post? It is pearls of wisdom for those who have not yet been truly introduced to Septic. :)
 
I did watch it. In fact, I watched it as soon as you posted it.

I just felt the need to add exclamation points to poke fun at our esteemed colleague that is a Baptist minister.

My thoughts on the content of the video are:
1: I believe they make several good points with regard to asking to see evidence.
2: No group is above criticism. Be it religious or otherwise.
3: I cannot call myself an atheist because I think there are far too many questions left unanswered. The term “supernatural” is something we apply when we don’t understand something. We may someday understand those things scientifically and then they will just become “natural”.

I've often felt the same way about the term "superstitious". I have a few nuances and people sometimes call me superstitious because of them.

But I'm not... I'm just a little stitious. :)
 
What am I "running down"? We're talking about the technical points of and application of the details of an argument.

The irony is that this forum is a full litter box of the "running down" the closely held beliefs of others. It's bewildering to me why people believe that "faith" should somehow be off limits to questioning. If answering for the extraordinary claims is inconvenient or uncomfortable - sorry.


I actually said I wasn’t calling y’all out. Quit the opposite really. Y’all were having a good and some what heated debate and it remained respectful.

Posting quickly while working.
Sorry I wasn’t clear with that post.


And you’re still a problem (which was a joke that was poorly executed)
 
I don't get this. If Septic and all us others heathens were running around in every thread searching out believers to ridicule it would be one thing. To my knowledge, I don't think anybody is doing that. Not one.

Look at the title of this thread and then look at the discussion it generates. If you can't handle a place at the grown up table feel free to ignore the thread. Otherwise get over the victim complex and contribute.

JMO...of course.


Either reading comprehension is a problem or I suck at posting. Probably the second.
But I clearly addressed Christians and atheist as equals when running down others beliefs.


Edit. I’m mean seriously.....is telling Septic that I like him and he’s similar to me really a good reason to have to butt in? I know I’m a **** but damn.
 
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I actually said I wasn’t calling y’all out. Quit the opposite really. Y’all were having a good and some what heated debate and it remained respectful.

Posting quickly while working.
Sorry I wasn’t clear with that post.


And you’re still a problem (which was a joke that was poorly executed)

You're right - you did preface that I didn't recognize it until i'd already mashed 'go'. I was working as well and didn't give it the full attention I should have before replying. My bad.
 
You're right - you did preface that I didn't recognize it until i'd already mashed 'go'. I was working as well and didn't give it the full attention I should have before replying. My bad.

Ever met a religion thread you didn't like?
 
Oh, I understand the argument and have had that conversation with both of the posters you mentioned, I do believe.

You just referred to the argument as "valid". I take issue with that claim, so ask why you would call it "valid".

...

The claim is generally that people who never hear the gospel will go to hell and that's not fair.

Scripture isn't clear on the matter, so I can't speak in definitives. It may be that a person who never heard the Biblical account may respond to God progressively enough to reach salvation through Jesus while never hearing of Jesus as Jesus. (This is my personal hope.)

Everyone who was saved in the OT was saved by faith in Jesus, not named yet as Jesus, but Jesus nonetheless. The book of Hebrews is explicit that every OT salvation occurred via faith in Jesus as He had revealed Himself to them at the time.

It's also conceivable that every person who dies without hearing the gospel goes directly to Hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Paul, in Romans, makes it clear that those who were given the law are judged by the law and those who were not given the law are judged by their own conscience. Some are condemned by their knowledge of scripture and some by their knowledge of their own moral failures.

The problem for those using this example against God is... What makes it "valid", as you said?

They never get around to making it a valid argument. They just play on (fallen) human preferences and hope that the conversation stays at the level of what we (fallen) humans think to be acceptable--let's say "preferable".

(1) God created the universe for the purpose He has for the Universe, so He had the right to create it as He saw fit.

(2) The accusers in the room are very liberal in telling us what's "right" and "wrong" for God to do. They're the first to stand up and tell us when God is acting unethical and immoral.... But this is only after informing the world that morality is relative and there is no objective standard to it.

So, all they are actually saying when they accuse God is that He didn't do things according to their preference. Well, duh.

(3) We will take PKT's example since it's a recent example. PKT just said (yesterday?) in this very thread that the great stumbling block for most people per Christian theology is that a child rapist could repent and be forgiven, yet Gandhi would be in Hell right now.

That's an appeal to justice. PKT and Septic would be standing on their view of justice there. They want justice, not grace.

Scripture tells us that every person who ever goes to Hell is judged based on God's justice, and it is just for them to be there. Further, scripture tells us that every person who is saved is saved by grace.

So, the argument seems to be switched now, instead of wanting justice, they all want everyone to get grace. You see? Grace is a stumbling block when it's convenient to stumble on it. And justice is a stumbling block when it's convenient to stumble on it.

So, the unpopular answer, yet the answer I believe to be true? I don't understand exactly how it all works. As part of my faith, I trust God's judgment. Anyone who goes to hell is there because of what they've done. Anyone who is saved is saved despite themselves, based solely on God's grace. Theologically, it's a bit ridiculous to say that God is forced to issue His grace to whom, and in ways that, He chooses not to.

The accuser's belief in a relative morality makes the entire conversation a non-starter if they choose to be honest about their beliefs and actually live those beliefs out to their logical conclusions. (If morality is relative and mere preferences, then they have no platform to say their "preference" is more valid than God's "preference".)


This is a part of why i love ya bro. You help me understand things i already at least have a limited uunderstanding of much better, in the modern debate format that seems to always be the mode required here.

The way life has been lately has had me giving a lot of thought to Job. His is a book that nonbelievers could never accept...it basically boils down to " where were you when i laid the foundations of the world?" Which i interpret to be " because I am God, and you are not." The foolish thoughts of man will never fully grasp the motives of God. I can accept that. In fact, the book of job to me is an analogy for life... i can live it. Not just believe it. Many here could never understand without first knowing. HIM...so I dont even try to explain how I feel. It would be like trying to explain the color orange to a lifelong blind person...what could i say? I met the Lord 14 years ago, but i am still an infant in my walk. Trying to grow...there are growing pains.

Thanks for your help.
 
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Ever met a religion thread you didn't like?

tumblr_n9vj6tlq8d1smcbm7o1_500.gif
 
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This is a part of why i love ya bro. You help me understand things i already at least have a limited uunderstanding of much better, in the modern debate format that seems to always be the mode required here.

The way life has been lately has had me giving a lot of thought to Job. His is a book that nonbelievers could never accept...it basically boils down to " where were you when i laid the foundations of the world?" Which i interpret to be " because I am God, and you are not." The foolish thoughts of man will never fully grasp the motives of God. I can accept that. In fact, the book of job to me is an analogy for life... i can live it. Not just believe it. Many here could never understand without first knowing. HIM...so I dont even try to explain how I feel. It would be like trying to explain the color orange to a lifelong blind person...what could i say? I met the Lord 14 years ago, but i am still an infant in my walk. Trying to grow...there are growing pains.

Thanks for your help.

My fervent prayers for you, bro. I'm a call away if you need anything--even if it's just an encouraging word.
 
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