Where did life begin? (Merged)

[BigO95]

Pkt judging by God's laws show me one person on planet Earth that would be good enough to go to heaven. We are all lawbreakers. If you have broken one law you have broken the whole law.
The law wasn't given to make you righteous it was given to show you that you need a savior.
No one will ever come to the saving knowledge of Grace until they can see that they are not good. No one would be interested in a pardon unless they have been found guilty.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Do you think it is possible to blaspheme against one but not the other two?

Yes. Yeshua Messiah clearly states you can.

 

[Orangeslice13]

And in my opinion there are two powers and heaven.

YHWH-the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And the unique only begotten Messiah who has been issued all power rights and authority to act and speak on behalf of G-d. The Holy Spirit is simply the presence of G-d and not a 3rd god.

Support vs
1 Cor :15

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Vs 28 is interesting in that Yeshua/Jesus is subject agin to G-d after all Yeshua’s work is done. An action that is unnecessary if they’re the same person.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

So *you're* the reason his uncle is having E Coli issues with his water supply!

Nah... the nice thing about it being a spring is that the water was always filtered and fresh. But that's not to say that some of the downstream landowner's may have had E Coli issues!

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

The problem is that all sin is not forgiven. Blasphemy is considered an unforgivable sin.

A little more specific actually.
Blasphemy against the spirit of G-d.

Again that would be blasphemy against the holy spirit of God, not just blasphemy.

How does that change my post?

jmo... but seems to me like you were being a bit persnickety last night. Your statement above would be the equivalent of saying "killing is considered as being unlawful", but it's not. Killing another person is unlawful.

Killing another person in self defense is not.
Killing an animal, in most cases, is not.
Killing a potted plant is not.
Killing me softly with this song... is not. (apologies to Roberta Flack).

 

[Wafflestomper]

For instance:



What "problem"? What "justice"? In your worldview, and by your own assertions, there is no "problem" outside of your own, personal moral preferences, correct? In your own worldview, you are relegated to a socially defined definition of "justice"? Some human activities and beliefs that evolved for our own self preservation?

What "problem" exactly? Please be specific and honest from your worldview.

And this:



You've made this argument before. So, again, with the concepts of morality that you have at your disposal--self-protective human evolved traits?--how will you hang those on God and make Him "immoral" or "unjust" in His plans and activities?

Again. Please be honest from your worldview and tell me *exactly* how your preferences are a "problem" for God. How will you make Him "unjust"?

Or should you just cut the grandstanding and be honest. You don't like it.

It would seem to me that proving God exists would be a prerequisite for making an argument for morality based on that God. I must have missed this part in a previous discussion.

Even if you were able to prove that your God exists, is there an objective way to determine what the moral action is in every moral dilemma? Doesn't that often require a person-relative interpretation or inference as to what God would want?

 

[Septic]

It would seem to me that proving God exists would be a prerequisite for making an argument for morality based on that God. I must have missed this part in a previous discussion.

Even if you were able to prove that your God exists, is there an objective way to determine what the moral action is in every moral dilemma? Doesn't that often require a person-relative interpretation or inference as to what God would want?

opcorn:

 

[marcusluvsvols]

opcorn:

You know that the first line of this post is a nonstarter that disqualifies it altogether.

Really wanna go back through the "cant prove He exists, cant prove He doesn't " scenario. Been there, got the postcard.

Christians hold a morality given to them from the Bible largely, as well as internal conviction. Those who arent religious make up their own ideas of right and wrong. Not much sport in that debate. These FBS playoffs are far more interesting.

By the way, i got a 20 spot that says North Dakota st. Would have beaten our beloved Vols by at least 2 a TDs this year...which is sad since our 4 year recruiting average, in the big boy league, cant be outside the top 20....good riddance Butch.

 

[apevol]

Can't remember who said it..about a man judging God by his own preference of what is right and wrong.

Something about that stuck me like a thorn in the ass, and when my mind is good and limbered up, I may give my thoughts on that.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

It would seem to me that proving God exists would be a prerequisite for making an argument for morality based on that God. I must have missed this part in a previous discussion.

Even if you were able to prove that your God exists, is there an objective way to determine what the moral action is in every moral dilemma? Doesn't that often require a person-relative interpretation or inference as to what God would want?

So what is your stance on morality? Random chance?

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Can't remember who said it..about a man judging God by his own preference of what is right and wrong.

Something about that stuck me like a thorn in the ass, and when my mind is good and limbered up, I may give my thoughts on that.

Im sick right now brother, but will call you in the next couple days. Hope you are doing well, appreciate you.

 

[Orange_Crush]

It would seem to me that proving God exists would be a prerequisite for making an argument for morality based on that God. I must have missed this part in a previous discussion.

Even if you were able to prove that your God exists, is there an objective way to determine what the moral action is in every moral dilemma? Doesn't that often require a person-relative interpretation or inference as to what God would want?

Point out where I've tried to make an argument for morality based on God. As a matter of fact, I have explicitly stated that I am not, and have been very careful not to seem as though I am.

I've merely pointed out that a relativistic morality isn't one by which one may try to judge God and be internally consistent.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Can't remember who said it..about a man judging God by his own preference of what is right and wrong.

Something about that stuck me like a thorn in the ass, and when my mind is good and limbered up, I may give my thoughts on that.

I believe that was me. Wasnt trying to be a thorn in your whatever.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

I believe that was me. Wasnt trying to be a thorn in your whatever.

Hes glad it was. Ape and I have a whole lot in common. Hes a very good guy that knows the truth, and his worst enemy has always been the man in the mirror. Hes a real dude, and has a big heart. Like me, he has had to work hard to keep his demons at bay. I respect him, a lot.

Plus hes funny, lol...

 

[Orange_Crush]

Hes glad it was. Ape and I have a whole lot in common. Hes a very good guy that knows the truth, and his worst enemy has always been the man in the mirror. Hes a real dude, and has a big heart. Like me, he has had to work hard to keep his demons at bay. I respect him, a lot.

Plus hes funny, lol...

I like ape. He is hilarious. But my heart breaks for him just from what I infer.

 

[apevol]

Im sick right now brother, but will call you in the next couple days. Hope you are doing well, appreciate you.

Will be here. Just glad youre still around, man.

 

[Wafflestomper]

Point out where I've tried to make an argument for morality based on God. As a matter of fact, I have explicitly stated that I am not, and have been very careful not to seem as though I am.

I've merely pointed out that a relativistic morality isn't one by which one may try to judge God and be internally consistent.

Speaking of being internally consistent, are you the only one who is allowed to argue and not explicitly state their own beliefs? I'll admit I haven't read all of the forum rules.

you're hiding behind vagueness.

Again, if you want to air the specifics of beliefs you own asm opposed to arguing from vaguness...?

So what are your thoughts on the questions I posed earlier in regard to traditional Christian moral systems (e.g. Divine Command, Natural Law)?

is there an objective way to determine what the moral action is in every moral dilemma? Doesn't that often require a person-relative interpretation or inference as to what God would want?

 

[Wafflestomper]

You know that the first line of this post is a nonstarter that disqualifies it altogether.

Really wanna go back through the "cant prove He exists, cant prove He doesn't " scenario. Been there, got the postcard.

This is shifting the burden of proof.

Christians hold a morality given to them from the Bible largely...

Which was written by men. Also, I'm not aware of a way to make correct moral judgments on issues not covered by the Bible. The Bible/God are often not completely consistent on the same moral issues either.

...as well as internal conviction. Those who arent religious make up their own ideas of right and wrong.

How's that different from judgments based on someone's own ideas of right and wrong?

 

[Mick]

I can imagine the intoxication level when you got the nickname Wafflestomper.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Speaking of being internally consistent, are you the only one who is allowed to argue and not explicitly state their own beliefs? I'll admit I haven't read all of the forum rules.





So what are your thoughts on the questions I posed earlier in regard to traditional Christian moral systems (e.g. Divine Command, Natural Law)?

You are free to pull up all the other religion threads where I typed up more than Stephen king. And you may want to research the definition of internal consistency. You seem to misunderstand it's meaning.

 

[Wafflestomper]

You are free to pull up all the other religion threads where I typed up more than Stephen king. And you may want to research the definition of internal consistency. You seem to misunderstand it's meaning.

I think you overestimate how interested I am in your opinion; I'm not digging through old threads to try to find an answer to my specific question.

I was under the impression that beliefs which manifest themselves externally could still be qualified as "internal." Unless, of course, your responses require no thought...

 

[Orange_Crush]

I think you overestimate how interested I am in your opinion; I'm not digging through old threads to try to find an answer to my specific question.

I was under the impression that beliefs which manifest themselves externally could still be qualified as "internal." Unless, of course, your responses require no thought...

If you don't want me overestimating your interest, perhaps you should stop showing such interest?

The fact of the matter is that you seem to have lost your way with following the conversation. I showed up feeling little need to convert you to my beliefs, therefore I never proposed my beliefs to you.

I showed up, interested in having conversations with old, online friends in this forum. A fellow believer asked me specifically to speak on a particular criticism against our beliefs, which I did. Fort his benefit. Not yours. (IOW, get over yourself.)

For some odd reason, your buttons seem to have gotten pushed, you pressed, I responded, you inferred little interest after showing some strange interest, and here we are.

So, to set your concerns at ease:

I have little interest in proving my faith to you or anyone else. I actually stated as such in this very thread earlier.

I don't think I can prove my beliefs to you or anyone else. Again, I stated as such in this very thread, so you didn't need much interest after all--just a bit of reading comprehension. (IOW, you never needed to search other threads in the first place. It was right here for you.)

I have probably stated and defended by metaphysical beliefs more than anyone else on this forum, and probably to more "attacks" against it. So, if you develop an interest, there's a long history for you peruse.

If your interest is still as low as you state, feel free to stop asking me out.

:hi:

 

[Orange_Crush]

Placeholder for ape.

Because I love him.

 

[apevol]

OC, I am curious to know if your faith has ever been shaken to the point you wanted to revoke your allegiance to God. I'm not talking about belief, but rather, your capacity to view God as worthy of worship and devotion.

 

[Orange_Crush]

OC, I am curious to know if your faith has ever been shaken to the point you wanted to revoke your allegiance to God. I'm not talking about belief, but rather, your capacity to view God as worthy of worship and devotion.

My faith has been shaken on several occasions. Yes, I have struggled several times.

The longer I have followed Him though, the more I have studied and prayed, the deeper my faith has become and the more I have found capacity to trust Him.

I truly believe the things I post here, bro. I truly believe them because I have truly thought deeply on these subjects. I've thought deeply because I have had to.

And the longer I have followed Him, the longer I have had opportunity to experience His character and faithfulness.

I have recently gone through a season where He seems to have taken almost everything from me. Or allowed almost everything to be taken from me and my family. We've been left with no ability to fend for ourselves.

Having walked with Him for so long, our first response was to trust Him and see this season as opportunity to see Him glorified. We've treated it as opportunity to feel His presence and provision above and beyond our capability. We've relied on His Word that His strength is shown in our weakness.

He's been more faithful than we could ever have hoped. We've felt His love, care and presence like we never have before.

So, yes. I have had seasons where I believed in Him and still questioned His character. He's met me in those seasons because I asked Him to. And I've experienced Him in such places in such ways that I'm not sure if I'll ever need to question Him like that again.

There is MUCH I don't know or understand about Him. But there is also MUCH that I have experienced of Him, and that's what makes me trust what I don't understand.

Much love and many prayers for you, bro. I know you have had, and have, pain. My prayer is that God will meet you there and it won't have been wasted pain--as it will have been your road to Him.

OC