What W/L record need next season should force Fulmer to retire?

What W/L record next season should force Fulmer to retire?

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#51
#51
UT IE 95 said:
You negavols are starting to sound a lot like Ole Miss fans...shame on you.

The only thing that pushes Fulmer out is a loosing season or health reasons. That said, I am expecting a very competitive season next year with us in the mix with FL for a trip to ATL. I'll have a much better off season than the ones hoping for a loosing record.
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Ok, how long are you ok going without an sec title.
 
#53
#53
There's always the chance of firing a guy not meeting expectations and getting someone right for the job. I seem to remember a guy from around here that was booted after constantly not producing against his rival and the conference. A fairly similar situation. This was six years ago and that program has since gone on to win a national championship and will be playing for another tonight.
 
#54
#54
DrRosenRosen said:
There's always the chance of firing a guy not meeting expectations and getting someone right for the job. I seem to remember a guy from around here that was booted after constantly not producing against his rival and the conference. A fairly similar situation. This was six years ago and that program has since gone on to win a national championship and will be playing for another tonight.
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Other than the first national championship part, it looks like your description fits 2 guys.
 
#55
#55
tvolsfan said:
What would you guys take. Phil wins the SEC championship this year, and he goes 6 more years without wining, or have a mediocre year next year and have a new coach (we are going to assume worth the money we will pay him) and take the chance?

Just saying I would take the chance.
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like i've said, i don't really care who the coach is, so long as we are competing regularly for SEC titles. that doesn't mean we have to win it ever year or anything...but if we won the SEC in 07, i couldn't in my right mind say Fulmer needed to go.
UT IE 95 said:
You negavols are starting to sound a lot like Ole Miss fans...shame on you.

The only thing that pushes Fulmer out is a loosing season or health reasons. That said, I am expecting a very competitive season next year with us in the mix with FL for a trip to ATL. I'll have a much better off season than the ones hoping for a loosing record.
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no. 1, Ole Miss fans? really? c'mon...you can do better than that. Ole Miss hasn't sniffed a championship in what 40 years? i think our expectations are clearly more justified than Ole mIss's.
and we were competitive this year. we were in the mix with FL for about 8-9 weeks this year. and i think it will be about the same next year.
DrRosenRosen said:
There's always the chance of firing a guy not meeting expectations and getting someone right for the job. I seem to remember a guy from around here that was booted after constantly not producing against his rival and the conference. A fairly similar situation. This was six years ago and that program has since gone on to win a national championship and will be playing for another tonight.
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for everyone one of those, i'll show you a jim donnan that replaced ray goff or a gerry dinardo that replaced mike archer...those kinds of hires are the excepiton, not the rule.

point is taken, but i don't think that's the standard.

its a funny thing about coaching changes...everyone likes to talk about what FLorida, Bama, LSU, Georgia etc. have done in recent years. and i give full credit for them getting the guys they have. but in each case they all had to go thru some real gems before they finally got "the guy". I'm not against coaching changes, but don't change just for the sake of changing. esp at TN. as much as i may think we do need change, i have no interest in going thru tenures by the likes of mike archer, jim donnan, ray goff, ron zook, mike dubose, mike prices, dennis franchione, or gerry dinardo.

you want to make a change, fine, but let's get our Urban Meyer, Nick Saban or Mark Richt the first time around.
 
#56
#56
UT IE 95 said:
You negavols are starting to sound a lot like Ole Miss fans...shame on you.

The only thing that pushes Fulmer out is a loosing season or health reasons. That said, I am expecting a very competitive season next year with us in the mix with FL for a trip to ATL. I'll have a much better off season than the ones hoping for a loosing record.
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nice avater, that said no chance to challege in the east. thats my opinion.
 
#58
#58
tvolsfan said:
What would you guys take. Phil wins the SEC championship this year, and he goes 6 more years without wining, or have a mediocre year next year and have a new coach (we are going to assume worth the money we will pay him) and take the chance?

Just saying I would take the chance.
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So you would like for us to have a bad year next year? I do not understand the perspective of some of the posters on this forum.

XtennesseeX said:
Vote Spurrier!
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That post actually made me physically ill. Please don't do that again.
 
#60
#60
I think he wouldn't get canned unless they didn't make it to a bowl game OR he does bad next year and has a mix of more discipline problems with his players.
 
#61
#61
There's a reason I don't get involved in this kind of crap. The biggest one is because that's what it all is....crap.

I (and any other Cleveland Browns fan) already went through this recently with Tim Couch and Kelly Holcomb. A lot of Browns fans were never sold on Couch, so they gave him a LOT of grief. It basically became the "anybody but Couch, because...." show. Finally, Couch broke his leg and Kelly Holcomb passed for a bunch of yards in a playoff loss. Couch, always the eptiome of class, got run out of town in favor of an undrafted career backup.

You know how the rest of it went. Holcomb sucked badly, Couch was cut, and the team now is looking at yet another top-5 draft pick. Why? Because "anyone but who's there now" took over.

So I'll ask it now. Who do you want to replace Fulmer and why? Anyone on here knows full well that winning the SEC every year is nearly impossible, and that every program has ups and downs. (Don't even try to argue otherwise; we see it every time something comes up where the media tries to say the SEC as a whole is overrated. You can't have it both ways.)

So is this it? Run Fulmer, a UT lifer, out of town for the great unknown? Run him out for some retread, some NFL assistant, or someone else who simply isn't Fulmer? Run him out because of what happened last year (if 1998 can't be used in support of him, then I move that 2005 can't be used against him)? Run him out because he's not some young hotshot?

I coach the game. Ask anyone who's played under me (the D-1 ranks have a few of my former players) if I personally EVER accept mediocrity or lack of effort. My support of Coach Fulmer in no way has anything to do with "accepting mediocrity" or "being average", and the very insinuation burns me. I have never and will never accept mediocrity.

My desire to see UT football back at the top of the mountain certainly doesn't override my good sense. Are there a couple of changes I'd like to see? Absolutely. Am I in favor of a wholesale dismantling of the program because it's been 8 years? Not a chance. Don't forget that UT went 47 years between consensus championships. Does that mean that those who supported Wyatt, Battle, Dickey, and Majors "accepted mediocrity"? Give me a break.
 
#62
#62
Ohio Vol said:
My desire to see UT football back at the top of the mountain certainly doesn't override my good sense. Are there a couple of changes I'd like to see? Absolutely. Am I in favor of a wholesale dismantling of the program because it's been 8 years? Not a chance. Don't forget that UT went 47 years between consensus championships. Does that mean that those who supported Wyatt, Battle, Dickey, and Majors "accepted mediocrity"? Give me a break.
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Reasonable points...

1. What changes would you like to see?
 
#63
#63
Liper,

I don't see the offensive and defensive cohesion that should ideally exist. It seemed to become more apparent as this year went on that, as whichever unit was on the field was playing, they appeared to be distinct position groups more than an 11-man group. This could be the result of something as minor as needing to re-allocate certain amounts of practice time or something as major as needing to assess whether a couple of assistant coaches are pulling their weight.

An example (that I hate to use, by the way, because I hate the school I mention now) is Ohio State. The defense that they use is surprisingly basic. But what you see is a defensive line who understands and executes their role (reading and reacting to whatever block they are confronted with), linebackers who understand and execute their role (flowing to the ball by sideshuffling rather than lateral running), and a secondary that executes by staying disciplined within their assignments and not freewheeling. Although you can look at particular games and say "Boy, the defense looked slow" or "that defense got a little jumpy", you can't look at it and say anything like "The linebackers screwed up" or "the defensive line failed badly". The reason is that the system simply prevents that from happening. Yes, the talent is nice to have, but when the system is designed so that a basic zone blocking-based stretch play results in 8+ defenders being in the vicinity no matter how far the ballcarrier goes, it becomes apparent that the quality of the players isn't as relevant as the cohesion and discipline. That's how they broke in 8 or 9 new starters and are playing for a title right now.

What UT's defense (I'm not meaning to single them out here, but it's for the sake of the comparison) has looked like was more like Ole Miss a couple years ago, which was based off hard slanting and guesswork more than a coherent system. My issue with UT's defense for a long time is that they'll get 7 or 8 guys to the ball on basic plays, but a counter or draw or option is going to get a lot of yardage a lot of time. The 2001 SEC title game was lost because Matt Mauck was able to either run draws or hand off to Domanick Davis on draws for huge yardage. The 2004 Florida game should have been a 20-point loss, but Florida got away from those plays at halftime even though they were having great success with them. And I don't need to bring up UT's history against option teams....

If the coordinators and the assistants aren't on the same page, they need to be on the same page. If they're not, then someone who will work toward that end should be put in. If Cutcliffe's offense is struggling because the O-line coach (a proponent of zone blocking) isn't wholeheartedly behind man blocking, then he needs to go and be replaced with someone who will know and execute their role.
 
#66
#66
Ohio Vol said:
Liper,

I don't see the offensive and defensive cohesion that should ideally exist...If the coordinators and the assistants aren't on the same page, they need to be on the same page. If they're not, then someone who will work toward that end should be put in. If Cutcliffe's offense is struggling because the O-line coach (a proponent of zone blocking) isn't wholeheartedly behind man blocking, then he needs to go and be replaced with someone who will know and execute their role.
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You hit one that perpetually bugs me - the OL. That situation, if it's real, is a pretty direct reflection on the head coach who is a former OL coach. It's not like a new problem; they've stunk for the better part of 7 years now.

Seems to me one particle of evidence that shows Fulmer is very slow to identify, change, and move forward...and it's not getting better.

I've never been a proponent of firing the guy, but everything you've described lands in the coaching realm.

I'm more inclined to give Chavis a pass since the D usually plays well. But then again, the material he's had has been second to none for about a decade.
 
#71
#71
Liper,

I disagree. When someone becomes a head coach, he basically ceases to oversee the position group that he came from. The reason is that it becomes impossible to devote the amount of time and attention to detail to a position group that is warranted while also overseeing the entire team and program.

What happens is that if the head coach starts sticking his fingers into the minute details of a position group, there's no telling what he's actually saying or doing. What the head coach or coordinator wants done should be made perfectly clear before it even gets initially covered in a practice. If, say, the QB coach tells his QB on a certain pass play series to take the snap, reverse pivot, and sprint out one direction at 5 yards depth while looking to a receiver....and the head coach comes over and starts changing that, what's that do? It damages the working relationship between the two for starters, and it either makes the head coach look like an ogre or the QB coach look like an idiot. I will say that this was a big issue for John Cooper when he was at Ohio State. He was basically known for coming into position practice or position meetings and "teaching" something contrary to what the assistant was coaching. It hurts the credibility of one or the other, and sometimes both.

The head coach's job is to delegate control of the offense and defense to the coordinators, and their job is to delegate to the position assistants. If a position assistant isn't working out, it's the job of the coordinator to address it while also vocalizing his concerns to the head coach. It's entirely possible for a head coach to act as a coordinator, but he ideally has either a co-coordinator or he delegates other aspects of the program to other coaches or staff members.

(By the way, I was part of a staff once where I was the OL coach and the head coach kept trying to "correct" what I was teaching in front of my players. The result was the worst offensive production I've ever seen, and our working relationship deteriorated to the point where I was elsewhere the next season.)

So if the OL coaching position for UT has been an issue, it falls to the offensive coordinator (Cutcliffe) to make sure he and the head coach (Fulmer) are both aware of what exactly Cutcliffe's issue is. Constantly changing staff and their roles isn't good for continuity. Don't forget that this is Cutcliffe's first season at UT since 1998, and he's more inclined to give one of his underlings a pass for a year or so. If the prior offensive coordinator (Sanders) wasn't on the same page as Fulmer, then that to me says much more about the decline of that position than what Fulmer used to play or coach.
 
#72
#72
Yeah, I get all of that. But what I'm saying is that Fulmer would/should have a particular ability to see that something is amiss in that area. It doesn't mean he's sticking his head in meetings. But he watched all the tape, and he should be able to see it's not right. What I'm speaking to has nothing whatever to do with delegation v micromanagement.

Moreover, he hires his coordinators.

But see, CPF's modus operandi is to more or less blame the players for everything and pretend that there are no coaching problems.

I remember during and after the 2000 season where we went 8-4 and he talked about not having the players to win...and then sent the most players into the NFL that year followed up by one of his 2 or 3 most talented teams. He just seems delusional.
 
#73
#73
Liper said:
Yeah, I get all of that. But what I'm saying is that Fulmer would/should have a particular ability to see that something is amiss in that area. It doesn't mean he's sticking his head in meetings. But he watched all the tape, and he should be able to see it's not right. What I'm speaking to has nothing whatever to do with delegation v micromanagement.

Moreover, he hires his coordinators.

But see, CPF's modus operandi is to more or less blame the players for everything and pretend that there are no coaching problems.

I remember during and after the 2000 season where we went 8-4 and he talked about not having the players to win...and then sent the most players into the NFL that year followed up by one of his 2 or 3 most talented teams. He just seems delusional.
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I agree. Having players has never been a problem at UT. You look at how many players are in the NFL now, and see what we have done with them in terms of wins and losses. It makes you sick. I guess Fulmer needs to have 10 or 11 future NFL starters on his team to win a championship.
 
#74
#74
Liper,

I'm not privy to the relationship between Sanders and Fulmer or Cutcliffe and Fulmer, so I'm not going to go into that.

I will say that there is definitely a point where coaching stops and execution takes over. Remember in the SEC title game this year when the kid from Arkansas tried to field a punt over his shoulder inside the 5? I can guarantee you that there isn't a coach in America who would ever coach something like that.

Admittedly that's a very obvious and strange example, but stuff like that happens hundreds of times during a game. It can be something as obvious (to a coach) as blocking the wrong man or something as relatively minor as wrong angle of an iniital step by a lineman. Chewing out players in the media does absolutely nothing except hurt morale and create a rift between players and coaches.

The problem is that the media (particularly the TV media) gets an awful lot wrong. You know why Oklahoma's run game was better without Adrian Peterson than with? Because the other backs would wait for a kickout block from a pulling lineman, while Peterson would get impatient and try to stretch it out. To the TV media, it appears that Peterson is doing everything he can. To them, it appears that the offensive line is too slow to get to their blocks, when the reality is that the running back is hurting his own team.

Try coaching, say, a wing-T team or an I-formation team with an impatient halfback and you'll want to hang yourself.
 
#75
#75
Would they be playing for the national championship tonight? Probably not. Just because you can recruit doesn't mean you can coach. UT needs to wise up before it's too late.
 
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