What if?

[larjoranj]

Well, the thread has officially jumped the tracks and is now careening down an embankment.

With any luck it will run over the Holly haters and lovers who seek out every thread to post the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over.......... and hopefully it will smash their typing fingers into goo

I'm surprised the softball thread hasn't been hijacked yet into a fire Holly/keep Holly battlefield

 

[blackv]

HW can't coach! She is the best at taking good players and turning them into bad player.

 

[teacherdean]

I don't have to pretend, it's what they're saying!

I do not expect players to stab their coaches in the back. I think they say what they believe is expected, not necessarily what they believe. How can players be motivated by a coach who constantly says she does not understand why they are erratic and not motivated? If a coach lacks the ability to understand their players and how to motivate them, lacks one of the key ingredients to be a very good coach.

 

[T.J.]

Well, since 4 highly rated players did sign, are you saying they must not have read this board? Or are you saying maybe they read the board but had more common sense than to factor in what us nut jobs on Volnation think or say?
And could you link an interview or quote by the incoming group that indicates the main reason they chose to come to UT?

larjoranj looks as though you participated in the hijacking of your own thread. lol:

Thanks for starting the thread, though. I enjoy reading what other fans are saying about the team. Especially in these dire times. :cray:

GOLadyVols!

 

[volnationnj]

I do not expect players to stab their coaches in the back. I think they say what they believe is expected, not necessarily what they believe. How can players be motivated by a coach who constantly says she does not understand why they are erratic and not motivated? If a coach lacks the ability to understand their players and how to motivate them, lacks one of the key ingredients to be a very good coach.

As a follow up on your post and the general question of "Is it Holly or the university that draws the recruits" ? I pose the following.
If Holly was the head coach of Georgia, and had the same results that she had this past season at Tennessee, how many of the recruits would have signed to play for her there ?
It only requires an opinion.

 

[PineyBluff Vol]

Never had a child commit to a school huh? Trust me, these kids develope personal relationships with the coaches recruiting them. Not just BB, but all sports. Yes the school matters also but quite honestly some of these girls have no connections to UT other than knowing some history about the program. Don't under sell Holly on this. If these girls are that good then they respect where they think the coaches can get them to.

I can't believe Holly would be so arrogant to walk into a potential players home and in front of this students parents say "come play for me"! These students are paid by the University for their education. I just don't believe that anyone would come and say "play for me".

 

[Coach Jumper]

We're all wanting chocolate cake... and the pantry is filled with rice cakes.

Pat and Holly were a great team because they fulfilled different roles and balanced each other. Pat was a tough disciplinarian who demanded every player's best and would accept no less. Holly was the mother hen. She listened, consoled, smoothed ruffled feathers and hugged away hurt feelings. Holly didn't have to be tough and demanding, because Pat took care of that. And now Pat is gone, and the winning formula is missing a key component. The hugs need the stare.

You've been reading my posts,
:hi:

I do not expect players to stab their coaches in the back. I think they say what they believe is expected, not necessarily what they believe. How can players be motivated by a coach who constantly says she does not understand why they are erratic and not motivated? If a coach lacks the ability to understand their players and how to motivate them, lacks one of the key ingredients to be a very good coach.

I agree absolutely. Just as there is coach-speak, there is expected player-speak. The only thing I would add is, what happens in the after-game locker-room stays fresh on the brain.

As a follow up on your post and the general question of "Is it Holly or the university that draws the recruits" ? I pose the following.
If Holly was the head coach of Georgia, and had the same results that she had this past season at Tennessee, how many of the recruits would have signed to play for her there ?
It only requires an opinion.

My players play for me AND my org. If one is mutually exclusive to the other, You get some playing for the coach and some representing the org.

I can't believe Holly would be so arrogant to walk into a potential players home and in front of this students parents say "come play for me"! These students are paid by the University for their education. I just don't believe that anyone would come and say "play for me".

If they believe they are the best coach, they can absolutely walk in and say that...But they better back it up.

 

[BMvol27]

Let us suppose that Holly is back next year, which is likely, even though many of you are stroking out at the thought. For those of you who would prefer Junior Samples or Frankenstein as coach over Holly, what kind of success next year would it take for you to think she deserved another year?

For those of you who think Holly is the most unfairly criticized human being of the last century, what would it take next year or the next couple years to push you into the "tar and feather Holly" group?

Final Four appearance. Five or fewer regular season losses. At least make it to SEC Tournament finals. No more than one loss to an unranked team. In other words, not going to happen.

 

[TNnative]

If Russell and Diamond come back. Minimum final four. Nothing less. You've now had 3 years with DD and all with Russell, you should know now how to coach this team, and coach them.

I get she isn't CPS. But HOW LONG did she sit by CPS, and we are seeing this today? I sometimes ask myself, what did you do while CPS was coaching? Did you not pay attention? You sat by the greatest coach IMO of basketball.

Weird but stay with me ... CPS made her own recipe for... let's say chocolate cake with vanilla frosting, and CHW assisted her everyday of making the same recipe for 30 years. Nothing changed, no new ingredient, the same thing every day, over 30 years. Sometimes Holly would go and get the ingredients, sometimes the ingredients CPS brought to the table, but no matter who brought in the ingredient, CPS always followed the same recipe on it daily. This recipe was world famous, and only a select few got to see CPS make it, and CHW was the only one in the whole world who made the recipe with her everyday. One day, CPS says, I'm leaving the kitchen, CHW can you cook today? Sure, of course says CHW. After the day was over, CHW brought to the dinner table chocolate cake that was very burnt, to the point is was uneatable, and the frosting was missing .... what happened? Most of the dinner guest were stunned. We've never seen anything like this before? You know what you are doing right? You sat with CPS everyday and watched her do it right? How can someone who cooked with CPS everyday for over 30 years with the same ingredient, with no changes, mess this up?

And the world never ate chocolate cake again. Just kidding. I'm eating it now.

Your obscene overuse of "CPS" and "CHW" makes me wish your chocolate was overloaded with ex-lax.

 

[larjoranj]

larjoranj looks as though you participated in the hijacking of your own thread. lol:

Thanks for starting the thread, though. I enjoy reading what other fans are saying about the team. Especially in these dire times. :cray:

GOLadyVols!

I tried to keep the train on the tracks early in the thread but I'm afraid I just wasn't up to the task. I give myself a D+:shakehead:

 

[teacherdean]

That may very well be a better question. I'm not a very good question thinker upper. But that wasn't the question that started this thread. I'll make you a deal. I'll answer your question and then you answer mine. My answer to your question is - I personally couldn't put a number on it. There could be injuries. MR may be back, she may not. Same for DD. If a new coach was hired there could be defections, including from the incoming class. The final team roster would have to be taken into account and we won't know that for awhile. I can say if we won 25 games the new coach wouldn't be on the hot seat with me. If we win 3, they would be on the hot seat with me. In between and I'll have to weigh the circumstances.

Possible defections will more than likely be based upon the new coaching hire. If the hire is an assistant from a successful program that might still spur defections, therefore, the best hire for this program is a proven winner. Possibly an ex Lady Vol hire, like Kara Lawson, might be enough to deter defections but I would still hire a known winner with a proven track record.

 

[teacherdean]

As a follow up on your post and the general question of "Is it Holly or the university that draws the recruits" ? I pose the following.
If Holly was the head coach of Georgia, and had the same results that she had this past season at Tennessee, how many of the recruits would have signed to play for her there ?
It only requires an opinion.

At best 1, maybe

 

[volnationnj]

At best 1, maybe

I would have to agree.

 

[governmentmule]

Next season, we will underperform again. Holly's excuse will be that the team mostly consists of freshmen and they need time to develop.

do you really think a bunch of freshmen will be the answer ? for sure they are a great bunch,no doubt about that

but they will be freshmen,hopefully they will develop quickly,but it is another who knows,staying healthy for a season is very important too ,that will be strange for CHW's teams too

I personally don't put a lot of stock in freshmen,they usually hit a plateau late in the season,due to the level of play for this many games,of course there are a few exceptions

 

[Coach Jumper]

do you really think a bunch of freshmen will be the answer ? for sure they are a great bunch,no doubt about that

but they will be freshmen,hopefully they will develop quickly,but it is another who knows,staying healthy for a season is very important too ,that will be strange for CHW's teams too

I personally don't put a lot of stock in freshmen,they usually hit a plateau late in the season,due to the level of play for this many games,of course there are a few exceptions

Do you remember a group of freshmen called the Fab Five?

 

[Amb3096]

Do you remember a group of freshmen called the Fab Five?

Men's basketball. Totally different thing.

Even UConn's much vaunted freshmen class led by Sue Bird faded by the end of their first year and lost early in the NCAA tournament (by UConn standards, anyway. S16 would be a banner year for Tennessee these days).

I think that if Diamond and MR opt to leave for the WNBA after this season, then we will be in for another run like what happened with Shekinna's class. It will take a few years for them to gel, establish roles, and become contenders.

 

[Rickster]

If I were a player, and a coach was hired that had never coached before, I MIGHT feel that it would be prudent to consider my options. A lot of it would have to do with my team mates, how strong those bonds were, and what transfer options were there if I decided to go down that path. Another part of it is my bond with friends outside the team. Players have more than just team mates to rely upon. Leaving friendships is not an easy thing to do and distance strains relationships. I would ultimately prefer to play for the coach who recruited me. They obviously believed in me as a player and what guarantee would I have if I transferred to another school that I would be better off. It might be a little different if the coach coming in had a proven track record of success but then I would not really want to start over building a relationship with a new coach if the old coach was wrongly railroaded in my opinion. I made the decision to play for the current coach, not someone who was brought in by the administration and I had no say in whether I wanted to play for them or not. There are those who say that players play for the university. I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I think they sign up to play for a coach who coaches at the university.

Those who want change have nothing invested in the team other than their self-satisfaction so it is easy for them to call for people to be fired. If changes are needed, let Holly make them. It appears she has already done a good job of fixing the recruiting part of the process. All this speculation about needing a coaching change would mean a lot more to me if someone who actually was/is a successful college coach said a change was needed. Fans and self-promoting coaching experts and wanna-be's, while sometimes entertaining, are taking a simplistic approach to a complex issue. The "buck stops here" kind of thinking. It is really easy to say fire the coach but then, those calling for Holly's firing have absolutely no accountability for that decision so if it goes south, they don't have to worry about their job. Those who called for change will probably be the first people who criticize the new coach for, once again, failing to meet their expectations. Like most have said, Holly is not going anywhere unless she wants to for at least another year or so. I want her to succeed and will continue to support her. If a coaching change occurs down the road, I will support the new coach. I am a loyal Lady Vol fan and will always support my team.

 

[volnationnj]

If I were a player, and a coach was hired that had never coached before, I MIGHT feel that it would be prudent to consider my options. A lot of it would have to do with my team mates, how strong those bonds were, and what transfer options were there if I decided to go down that path. Another part of it is my bond with friends outside the team. Players have more than just team mates to rely upon. Leaving friendships is not an easy thing to do and distance strains relationships. I would ultimately prefer to play for the coach who recruited me. They obviously believed in me as a player and what guarantee would I have if I transferred to another school that I would be better off. It might be a little different if the coach coming in had a proven track record of success but then I would not really want to start over building a relationship with a new coach if the old coach was wrongly railroaded in my opinion. I made the decision to play for the current coach, not someone who was brought in by the administration and I had no say in whether I wanted to play for them or not. There are those who say that players play for the university. I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I think they sign up to play for a coach who coaches at the university.

Those who want change have nothing invested in the team other than their self-satisfaction so it is easy for them to call for people to be fired. If changes are needed, let Holly make them. It appears she has already done a good job of fixing the recruiting part of the process. All this speculation about needing a coaching change would mean a lot more to me if someone who actually was/is a successful college coach said a change was needed. Fans and self-promoting coaching experts and wanna-be's, while sometimes entertaining, are taking a simplistic approach to a complex issue. The "buck stops here" kind of thinking. It is really easy to say fire the coach but then, those calling for Holly's firing have absolutely no accountability for that decision so if it goes south, they don't have to worry about their job. Those who called for change will probably be the first people who criticize the new coach for, once again, failing to meet their expectations. Like most have said, Holly is not going anywhere unless she wants to for at least another year or so. I want her to succeed and will continue to support her. If a coaching change occurs down the road, I will support the new coach. I am a loyal Lady Vol fan and will always support my team.

"Those calling for Holly's firing have absolutely no accountability for that decision so if it goes south, they don't have to worry about their job".

While what you say above is true, I think you're overlooking some important factors. Such as results.

Accomplishments the last two years:

Ending both regular seasons unranked.
No SEC season titles
No SECT titles (first round loss to a team that was 5-11 in conference play !)
No NCAA final fours (as of today. There's always hope)
Losing to SEC teams, on our own floor, that never beat us here before.
All this despite our line up loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

"If it goes south" ?
Hasn't it already gone South ?

Holly may very well be entrenched as HC here
until her contract expires. But what would it take, how much lower would we have to sink, before you recommend a coaching change ?

A similar question was asked last year and, if I remeber correctly, the most common response was: no SEC title, No SECT title, finish unranked, early NCAAT exit (No FF). Voila !!!

I may be mistaken, but I believe one can still support the team while promoting a change of coaches.

 

[armchair]

Do you remember a group of freshmen called the Fab Five?

did NOT win a championship. Next....:hi:

 

[Coach Jumper]

did NOT win a championship. Next....:hi:

They were in the championship game as freshmen and sophomores. I would take that in a minute

 

[Rickster]

"Those calling for Holly's firing have absolutely no accountability for that decision so if it goes south, they don't have to worry about their job".

While what you say above is true, I think you're overlooking some important factors. Such as results.

Accomplishments the last two years:

Ending both regular seasons unranked.
No SEC season titles
No SECT titles (first round loss to a team that was 5-11 in conference play !)
No NCAA final fours (as of today. There's always hope)
Losing to SEC teams, on our own floor, that never beat us here before.
All this despite our line up loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

"If it goes south" ?
Hasn't it already gone South ?

Holly may very well be entrenched as HC here
until her contract expires. But what would it take, how much lower would we have to sink, before you recommend a coaching change ?

A similar question was asked last year and, if I remeber correctly, the most common response was: no SEC title, No SECT title, finish unranked, early NCAAT exit (No FF). Voila !!!

I may be mistaken, but I believe one can still support the team while promoting a change of coaches.

While the results have not been what fans have been accustomed to, I would not classify it as going south. We live in an entitled age. People want dominating results in everything they decide to be involved with. It does not always turn out the way they would like for it to so in retaliation, they call for life changing events without thinking of the repercussions to the people actually involved. These are real people trying to do the best they can. I've been on both sides albeit not in coaching. Some things are just not in the control of the head person especially when it comes to people. Holly wants to win as bad as fans want her to win. She is trying to get the team in a position to do just that. Had injuries not affected the team the past few years, she could have done more than what she has. Recruiting is a fickle business and we are talking about young people who are susceptible to slick sales pitches. I think Holly has done a good job addressing that part of the program. Time will tell if she is able to fix the other issues that will ultimately satisfy those that follow the program if they can be satisfied.

 

[larjoranj]

If I were a player, and a coach was hired that had never coached before, I MIGHT feel that it would be prudent to consider my options. A lot of it would have to do with my team mates, how strong those bonds were, and what transfer options were there if I decided to go down that path. Another part of it is my bond with friends outside the team. Players have more than just team mates to rely upon. Leaving friendships is not an easy thing to do and distance strains relationships. I would ultimately prefer to play for the coach who recruited me. They obviously believed in me as a player and what guarantee would I have if I transferred to another school that I would be better off. It might be a little different if the coach coming in had a proven track record of success but then I would not really want to start over building a relationship with a new coach if the old coach was wrongly railroaded in my opinion. I made the decision to play for the current coach, not someone who was brought in by the administration and I had no say in whether I wanted to play for them or not. There are those who say that players play for the university. I don't think it is as clear cut as that. I think they sign up to play for a coach who coaches at the university.

Those who want change have nothing invested in the team other than their self-satisfaction so it is easy for them to call for people to be fired. If changes are needed, let Holly make them. It appears she has already done a good job of fixing the recruiting part of the process. All this speculation about needing a coaching change would mean a lot more to me if someone who actually was/is a successful college coach said a change was needed. Fans and self-promoting coaching experts and wanna-be's, while sometimes entertaining, are taking a simplistic approach to a complex issue. The "buck stops here" kind of thinking. It is really easy to say fire the coach but then, those calling for Holly's firing have absolutely no accountability for that decision so if it goes south, they don't have to worry about their job. Those who called for change will probably be the first people who criticize the new coach for, once again, failing to meet their expectations. Like most have said, Holly is not going anywhere unless she wants to for at least another year or so. I want her to succeed and will continue to support her. If a coaching change occurs down the road, I will support the new coach. I am a loyal Lady Vol fan and will always support my team.

Just to play devil's advocate-you say if you were a player and there was a coaching change you might not want to build a relationship with a new coach , but you would also have to do that if you transferred. And, if you decided to transfer I assume your ethics would not allow you to transfer to a program with a coach that replaced a coach that was fired? Because there would surely have been some fans who did not agree with that coach's firing.

You say those who want change have nothing invested. That's a random proclamation isn't it? Kinda like saying 'those who don't want change have nothing invested'. In fact, you don't have a clue what each individual fan has invested, whether they support Holly or not.

You say the people who want Holly fired will have no accountability if the replacement does not do well and that they will not have to worry about their jobs? What an odd statement. Will the people who support Holly have accountability and will they have to worry about their jobs if she ultimately fails and leaves?

 

[volnationnj]

While the results have not been what fans have been accustomed to, I would not classify it as going south. We live in an entitled age. People want dominating results in everything they decide to be involved with. It does not always turn out the way they would like for it to so in retaliation, they call for life changing events without thinking of the repercussions to the people actually involved. These are real people trying to do the best they can. I've been on both sides albeit not in coaching. Some things are just not in the control of the head person especially when it comes to people. Holly wants to win as bad as fans want her to win. She is trying to get the team in a position to do just that. Had injuries not affected the team the past few years, she could have done more than what she has. Recruiting is a fickle business and we are talking about young people who are susceptible to slick sales pitches. I think Holly has done a good job addressing that part of the program. Time will tell if she is able to fix the other issues that will ultimately satisfy those that follow the program if they can be satisfied.

That was the most disingenuous statement that I've read in quite some time. Have you watched all of the games that we played ?
While we had some great wins, we had many inexcusable losses. (Georgia, Alabama on our own floor).
We dropped out of the rankings for two constructive years and you don't consider that "going south" !!!!
If we're not going South, then we are either going North or we're staying even
Which is it ?
I'm not doubting that Holly isn't doing the best that she can. That's just the point. Her best doesn't appear to be good enough.
Wether it's Holly's fault or the players or any other reason you can dream up, the head coach is still held accountable.
You never answered the question previously posed. To what depths would the program have to sink before you declare it's time for a coaching change ?
I say they've already met that lowly standard.

 

[Rickster]

That was the most disingenuous statement that I've read in quite some time. Have you watched all of the games that we played ?
While we had some great wins, we had many inexcusable losses. (Georgia, Alabama on our own floor).
We dropped out of the rankings for two constructive years and you don't consider that "going south" !!!!
If we're not going South, then we are either going North or we're staying even
Which is it ?
I'm not doubting that Holly isn't doing the best that she can. That's just the point. Her best doesn't appear to be good enough.
Wether it's Holly's fault or the players or any other reason you can dream up, the head coach is still held accountable.
You never answered the question previously posed. To what depths would the program have to sink before you declare it's time for a coaching change ?
I say they've already met that lowly standard.

I don't understand your use of disingenuous. Apparently my definition of "going south" is different than yours. Nothing disingenuous about that. As far as the question goes, I never call for a coaches head so I don't have an answer to that question. It is up to management to make that determination.

 

[armchair]

Does Warlick have a brother? If so, his name is Rickster.