What about this question?

#2

Bigorangefaninga

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#2
What do you think CPHS would do differently with the team playing as they are now?
she wouldn't have let it get this far, however if she did she would take their stuff and lock it up as they dont deserve to wear Lady Vols stuff as she had done before! She also would bench any players that werent giving total effort, even if it meant a loss Pat wouldnt put up with loafing around by her players and she would sit you on the far end of the bench until you changed. She would also give that stare that would burn a hole through you and if that didnt work make you run until you threw up.
 
#3

Coach Jumper

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#3
she wouldn't have let it get this far, however if she did she would take their stuff and lock it up as they dont deserve to wear Lady Vols stuff as she had done before! She also would bench any players that werent giving total effort, even if it meant a loss Pat wouldnt put up with loafing around by her players and she would sit you on the far end of the bench until you changed. She would also give that stare that would burn a hole through you and if that didnt work make you run until you threw up.

I miss her
 
#7

madtownvol

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#7
Holly will not be fired, how many women coaches have been fired from sports I DNK of any, say thanks Title IX, # me too movement...……..
Dude, do a google search. For christsakes, women coaches are fired all the time.
For example, Jane Albright was fired (or more accurately refused a contract extension and she resigned) from THREE different schools. She is one off many.
 
#8

VOLPAT

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#8
she wouldn't have let it get this far, however if she did she would take their stuff and lock it up as they dont deserve to wear Lady Vols stuff as she had done before! She also would bench any players that werent giving total effort, even if it meant a loss Pat wouldnt put up with loafing around by her players and she would sit you on the far end of the bench until you changed. She would also give that stare that would burn a hole through you and if that didnt work make you run until you threw up.[/QUOTE.
Me too Coach Jumper. Watching her teams play was special.
 
#10

madtownvol

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#10
Let's be honest about the LVs, in their glory years,. They have never been a good offensive team. CPS took the mantra of defensive and rebounding wins championships very seriously but never seemed to have a feel for offense. She tried different systems - the motion offense, the triangle among others and sought out the advice of gurus like Phil Jackson but in the end, the LVs were a team that did most of their damage in transition from rebounds and steals. Their half court game was always spotty. When they won championships, they had transcendent players like Charles, Gordon, Holdsclaw, Catchings, and Parker who were close to unstoppable on good nights and forced teams to double team. Years where they had really good but not superstar players--like Lawson, Glory Johnson, Shanna Zolman, and Shekinna Stricklen--they could not get to the top of the proverbial mountain. And we had players like Semeka Randall and Kristen--who came into the program as high school scoring phenoms and left being barely hit a lay-up. It is really, really weird.

What kept the LVs formidable and final four contenders was their disciplined defense and being really smart with the ball. When Alexis Hornbuckle came into the program she had a tendency to force passes (like Evina) and that tendency got changed, very fast (unlike Evina).
A player might miss a defensive assignment but they only did it ONCE.

What we have now is the same ole, mediocre LV offense (which can look okay when someone gets really hot from outside but can't generate consistent points), coupled with a poor defensive orientation where players miss assignments, don't stay in front of the defenders, don't switch, dont' fight through screens, don't get back in transition and the list goes on And add to that poor decision making the crucial times. You can lose 5 in a row that way.

So, CPS would have solved the defensive problema and made ball security a top-priority. But the half-court offense would still be ugly. This hypothetical team would probably be undefeated or have one loss with questions lingering about how they would match up against other power houses like MIssST, ND, Uconn, and Baylor because of their offensive deficiencies.

In ideal world, the LVs would have the CPS defense and an entirely new approach to the offense .
 
#13

creekdipper

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#13
she wouldn't have let it get this far, however if she did she would take their stuff and lock it up as they dont deserve to wear Lady Vols stuff as she had done before! She also would bench any players that werent giving total effort, even if it meant a loss Pat wouldnt put up with loafing around by her players and she would sit you on the far end of the bench until you changed. She would also give that stare that would burn a hole through you and if that didnt work make you run until you threw up.
In fairness, a lot of fans have been throwing up lately.o_O
 
#14

sisaq

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#14
Let's be honest about the LVs, in their glory years,. They have never been a good offensive team. CPS took the mantra of defensive and rebounding wins championships very seriously but never seemed to have a feel for offense. She tried different systems - the motion offense, the triangle among others and sought out the advice of gurus like Phil Jackson but in the end, the LVs were a team that did most of their damage in transition from rebounds and steals. Their half court game was always spotty. When they won championships, they had transcendent players like Charles, Gordon, Holdsclaw, Catchings, and Parker who were close to unstoppable on good nights and forced teams to double team. Years where they had really good but not superstar players--like Lawson, Glory Johnson, Shanna Zolman, and Shekinna Stricklen--they could not get to the top of the proverbial mountain. And we had players like Semeka Randall and Kristen--who came into the program as high school scoring phenoms and left being barely hit a lay-up. It is really, really weird.

What kept the LVs formidable and final four contenders was their disciplined defense and being really smart with the ball. When Alexis Hornbuckle came into the program she had a tendency to force passes (like Evina) and that tendency got changed, very fast (unlike Evina).
A player might miss a defensive assignment but they only did it ONCE.

What we have now is the same ole, mediocre LV offense (which can look okay when someone gets really hot from outside but can't generate consistent points), coupled with a poor defensive orientation where players miss assignments, don't stay in front of the defenders, don't switch, dont' fight through screens, don't get back in transition and the list goes on And add to that poor decision making the crucial times. You can lose 5 in a row that way.

So, CPS would have solved the defensive problema and made ball security a top-priority. But the half-court offense would still be ugly. This hypothetical team would probably be undefeated or have one loss with questions lingering about how they would match up against other power houses like MIssST, ND, Uconn, and Baylor because of their offensive deficiencies.

In ideal world, the LVs would have the CPS defense and an entirely new approach to the offense .
I have no idea what this person exactly meant about all these past players, but what I know is the difference is coach.. Great coach get the best out of a player..so, talking bout we use to have great players with great discipline sounds like some Holly siblings..All these division 3 teams beating Lady vols have no star players in them.
 
#15

Amb3096

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#15
Let's be honest about the LVs, in their glory years,. They have never been a good offensive team. CPS took the mantra of defensive and rebounding wins championships very seriously but never seemed to have a feel for offense. She tried different systems - the motion offense, the triangle among others and sought out the advice of gurus like Phil Jackson but in the end, the LVs were a team that did most of their damage in transition from rebounds and steals. Their half court game was always spotty. When they won championships, they had transcendent players like Charles, Gordon, Holdsclaw, Catchings, and Parker who were close to unstoppable on good nights and forced teams to double team. Years where they had really good but not superstar players--like Lawson, Glory Johnson, Shanna Zolman, and Shekinna Stricklen--they could not get to the top of the proverbial mountain. And we had players like Semeka Randall and Kristen--who came into the program as high school scoring phenoms and left being barely hit a lay-up. It is really, really weird.

What kept the LVs formidable and final four contenders was their disciplined defense and being really smart with the ball. When Alexis Hornbuckle came into the program she had a tendency to force passes (like Evina) and that tendency got changed, very fast (unlike Evina).
A player might miss a defensive assignment but they only did it ONCE.

What we have now is the same ole, mediocre LV offense (which can look okay when someone gets really hot from outside but can't generate consistent points), coupled with a poor defensive orientation where players miss assignments, don't stay in front of the defenders, don't switch, dont' fight through screens, don't get back in transition and the list goes on And add to that poor decision making the crucial times. You can lose 5 in a row that way.

So, CPS would have solved the defensive problema and made ball security a top-priority. But the half-court offense would still be ugly. This hypothetical team would probably be undefeated or have one loss with questions lingering about how they would match up against other power houses like MIssST, ND, Uconn, and Baylor because of their offensive deficiencies.

In ideal world, the LVs would have the CPS defense and an entirely new approach to the offense .
I agree to a large extent, but as you said CPS could build a team around a transcendent player and turn them into a championship team, whereas I have no doubt that even if Holly had players like Catchings, Parker or Holdsclaw, she would still post middling results. She had Diamond, and that was one of her worst seasons yet. She did nothing with the tandem of MR and Nared, and is looking like a longshot at making the tournament with Evina and Rennia. The roster of the teams you mentioned are not that different from recent LV teams, but the difference is the players are improving and playing better on both sides of the ball because they have superior coaching. MSST lost 4 starters and has a roster of Holmes, Danberry, Bibby, Howard and McCowan. None of them were top 25 kids, yet they are firmly in control of the SEC and threatening to make another FF even after losing 4 starters. That's the difference between a team being coached up vs. one being coached down (Tennessee).

CPS would not have lost 10+ games with Diamond, MR, Cooper, Graves and Nared because she would have known what to do with them. Granted, UConn was better, but she would have gotten that team to the top of the SEC and probably the FF or NC game.
 
#17

glv98

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#17
Totally agree the offensive woes started under Pat. Several things happened around 2008 that aren't coincidental: our last unstoppable one on one scorer left, we won our last NC, and also importantly the game changed. More good players, more athleticism, and more good young coaches.

PHS saw this, admitted it publically and sought help for it. The greatest legend in the sport's history was not too proud to keep learning and growing. Modernized offense never really took hold for Pat late in her career for whatever reason but I give her all the credit in the world for identifying the problem and trying to solve it.

Holly not so much. I will never understand her reluctance or inability to address this even in the face of the program and her career crumbling. Her stubborn insistence that better defense and more transition, I.e. avoiding half court at all costs, will fix everything is so disheartening and so very destructive to the success of the highly touted recruits.

I guess Holly is just too steeped in the Corn Fed Chick offense of putbacks and points off turnovers to ever change. And apparently not open to suggestions from staff who unless they are doing the Birdbox ohallenge have to see this.

If Pat could see this and try to change Holly certainly should. But strangely, sadly, she hasn't and 7 seasons in ain't gonna. And this is why she's an albatross around the programs neck and has to go
 
#19

djohnnyg

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#19
Totally agree the offensive woes started under Pat. Several things happened around 2008 that aren't coincidental: our last unstoppable one on one scorer left, we won our last NC, and also importantly the game changed. More good players, more athleticism, and more good young coaches.

PHS saw this, admitted it publically and sought help for it. The greatest legend in the sport's history was not too proud to keep learning and growing. Modernized offense never really took hold for Pat late in her career for whatever reason but I give her all the credit in the world for identifying the problem and trying to solve it.

Holly not so much. I will never understand her reluctance or inability to address this even in the face of the program and her career crumbling. Her stubborn insistence that better defense and more transition, I.e. avoiding half court at all costs, will fix everything is so disheartening and so very destructive to the success of the highly touted recruits.

I guess Holly is just too steeped in the Corn Fed Chick offense of putbacks and points off turnovers to ever change. And apparently not open to suggestions from staff who unless they are doing the Birdbox ohallenge have to see this.

If Pat could see this and try to change Holly certainly should. But strangely, sadly, she hasn't and 7 seasons in ain't gonna. And this is why she's an albatross around the programs neck and has to go
The only issue I have with your post is that it suggests Holly has any sort of plan at all. She just trots em out there and tells em to play while she stands on the sideline with her hands in her armpits. She is clueless and has no strategy or "plan" whatsoever. Even Jr High coaches would have called timeout on that last drive by Arky.
 
#20

madtownvol

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#20
I agree to a large extent, but as you said CPS could build a team around a transcendent player and turn them into a championship team, whereas I have no doubt that even if Holly had players like Catchings, Parker or Holdsclaw, she would still post middling results. She had Diamond, and that was one of her worst seasons yet. She did nothing with the tandem of MR and Nared, and is looking like a longshot at making the tournament with Evina and Rennia. The roster of the teams you mentioned are not that different from recent LV teams, but the difference is the players are improving and playing better on both sides of the ball because they have superior coaching. MSST lost 4 starters and has a roster of Holmes, Danberry, Bibby, Howard and McCowan. None of them were top 25 kids, yet they are firmly in control of the SEC and threatening to make another FF even after losing 4 starters. That's the difference between a team being coached up vs. one being coached down (Tennessee).

CPS would not have lost 10+ games with Diamond, MR, Cooper, Graves and Nared because she would have known what to do with them. Granted, UConn was better, but she would have gotten that team to the top of the SEC and probably the FF or NC game.

It seems like people (Sisaq and you as well well) missed the point where I conjectured that "this hypothetical team would probably be undefeated or have one loss with questions lingering about how they would match up against other power houses like MIssST, ND, Uconn, and Baylor because of their offensive deficiencies." In other words, if a prime CPS was coaching this current team they would probably be undefeated or there abouts but would still be struggling offensively and as in the past years, there would be questions if we could keep up with Uconn and ND because of those shortcomings.

I am not sure why anyone would think I suggested that there would be no difference between CPS and CHW.
 
#21

madtownvol

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#21
I have no idea what this person exactly meant about all these past players, but what I know is the difference is coach.. Great coach get the best out of a player..so, talking bout we use to have great players with great discipline sounds like some Holly siblings..All these division 3 teams beating Lady vols have no star players in them.
I am sorry that your English comprehension is so poor. My point was that CPS instilled great discipline in her players.
 
#22

Amb3096

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#22
It seems like people (Sisaq and you as well well) missed the point where I conjectured that "this hypothetical team would probably be undefeated or have one loss with questions lingering about how they would match up against other power houses like MIssST, ND, Uconn, and Baylor because of their offensive deficiencies." In other words, if a prime CPS was coaching this current team they would probably be undefeated or there abouts but would still be struggling offensively and as in the past years, there would be questions if we could keep up with Uconn and ND because of those shortcomings.

I am not sure why anyone would think I suggested that there would be no difference between CPS and CHW.
I don't disagree that CPS' teams weren't the prettiest in terms of half court offense, but I think that she also held her players to a higher standard than Holly does...which prevents the team from repeatedly making the same "little mistakes" over and over, which just makes things harder for them given the lack of a fluid offense.

In your scenario above, I also think it's simply a case of expectations. When CPS was coaching, you expected more from the LVs, and was always looking at the team as a championship contender. So yeah...enough was never enough in some cases because UConn was better or Baylor was better. But Tennessee was, for the most part, still seen as a contender by the fanbase. Under Holly, you hope they don't lose to Alabama again. Bottom line is that expectations for the program have tumbled, and even those aren't being met.
 
#23

madtownvol

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#23
I don't disagree that CPS' teams weren't the prettiest in terms of half court offense, but I think that she also held her players to a higher standard than Holly does...which prevents the team from repeatedly making the same "little mistakes" over and over, which just makes things harder for them given the lack of a fluid offense.

In your scenario above, I also think it's simply a case of expectations. When CPS was coaching, you expected more from the LVs, and was always looking at the team as a championship contender. So yeah...enough was never enough in some cases because UConn was better or Baylor was better. But Tennessee was, for the most part, still seen as a contender by the fanbase. Under Holly, you hope they don't lose to Alabama again. Bottom line is that expectations for the program have tumbled, and even those aren't being met.
Sorry, I am not getting the distinction you are drawing. What is the difference between your counterpoint and my statement of:

"What kept the LVs formidable and final four contenders was their disciplined defense and being really smart with the ball. When Alexis Hornbuckle came into the program she had a tendency to force passes (like Evina) and that tendency got changed, very fast (unlike Evina).
A player might miss a defensive assignment but they only did it ONCE. "

Maybe it was not clear that I meant that this discipline reflected CPS's influence but...
 

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