Weirdest play I have ever seen

#27
#27
McDad said:
What is the distinction between an illegal forward pass and a fumble in that situation? Player didn't make a "pass" in the academic sense. Ball landed in the field of play.

Anybody know?
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I'd think since he threw it (as opposed to being hit and knocked loose or simply dropped) and it's forward then the refs judged it to be an illegal pass.
 
#30
#30
McDad said:
What is the distinction between an illegal forward pass and a fumble in that situation? Player didn't make a "pass" in the academic sense. Ball landed in the field of play.

Anybody know?
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Can't willfully bat, push or release the ball forwards/towards opponent's line, otherwise, result is an illegal pass with some form of penalty (this one was 1/2 distance back to goal, inside 10).
 
#31
#31
UT-Rex said:
Can't willfully bat, push or release the ball forwards/towards opponent's line, otherwise, result is an illegal pass with some form of penalty (this one was 1/2 distance back to goal, inside 10).
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The problem is there is no line of scrimmage on a kickoff.
 
#32
#32
UT-Rex said:
Can't willfully bat, push or release the ball forwards/towards opponent's line, otherwise, result is an illegal pass with some form of penalty (this one was 1/2 distance back to goal, inside 10).
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Understood. Thanks.

what's funny is had that been a UT player, it would have been ruled a fumble recovered by kicking team.
 
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#36
#36
BogeyVol said:
My favorite part was the ref's reaction. There was complete confusion on what he just saw... I believe the field ref's are happy the booth phoned this one in, because they were clueless.
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In their defense, I'm not sure the rules even contemplate something that stupid.
 
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#38
#38
Hacksaw said:
I assume this is in reference to the Iowa kick return?

I loved how the broadcast analyst said they wouldn't be able to call illegal forward pass from the replay booth, because they can only review calls on the field and not make calls. Then, the replay booth calls illegal forward pass when there was never a flag thrown on the field.
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Yeah, it's a problem whenever I knew what would happen while watching from home (with my limited football knowledge) and the sportscasters seemed to not understand football rules. I mean, I understand that the review system is a little complicated, but you would think they would know it since it's like, their job.

IBlvNTmWrk said:
Great point Slice. I think it was, but CBJ declined the penalty and instead opted for the ineligible receiver down field penalty.
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Actually, neither of those could be called here. Intentional Grounding isn't it's own penalty; it's just a category of Illegal Forward Pass (basically a special case of IFP that doesn't carry the normal 5 yard penalty, just the loss of down). Since this fell under the general section of IFP, Intentional Grounding doesn't apply. Ineligible Receiver Downfield doesn't apply either, since it can only occur when a LEGAL forward pass is thrown.
 
#39
#39
GAVol said:
In their defense, I'm not sure the rules even contemplate something that stupid.
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Agree. The refs were so confused that they couldn't figure out what to call with such an idiotic play. I almost think they just went with the mercy call there.
 
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#40
#40
DaddyChad said:
Agree. The refs were so confused that they couldn't figure out what to call with such an idiotic play. I almost think they just went with the mercy call there.
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It looked like the ref closest to the play called the runner OB because he was looking down to get the spot where the runner stepped out. When the ref looked up and saw the runner throw the ball forward he was still going with the runner was OB.

It was a stupid play period because with a little more air under it, it would have been caught by a UT player. The net penalty (whatever it happened to be) was only 1 yard.
 
#41
#41
Boca Vol said:
It looked like the ref closest to the play called the runner OB because he was looking down to get the spot where the runner stepped out. When the ref looked up and saw the runner throw the ball forward he was still going with the runner was OB.

It was a stupid play period because with a little more air under it, it would have been caught by a UT player. The net penalty (whatever it happened to be) was only 1 yard.
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But what it did to the Iowa psyches:yikes:could be factored in as part of the penalty:)
 
#43
#43
This play made me question the rules, as I have never seen anything quite like it. As someone who usually identifies official calls before they are vocalized, I went searching in the NCAA rules to see if they got it right. Even after looking at the official rules, I am still not 100% sure of the proper call.

First, the definition of a Fumble:
Fumble
ARTICLE 1. To fumble the ball is to lose player possession by any act other
than passing, kicking or successful handing (A.R. 2-19-2-I and A.R. 4-1-3-I).
The status of the ball is a fumble.
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Next, the definition of a Pass:
Passing
ARTICLE 1. Passing the ball is throwing it. A pass continues to be a pass until
it is caught or intercepted by a player or the ball becomes dead.
Forward and Backward Pass
ARTICLE 2. a. A pass is forward if the ball first strikes the ground, a player,
an official or anything else beyond the spot where the ball is released. All other
passes are backward passes. When in question a pass thrown in or behind the
neutral zone is forward rather than a backward pass.
b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the
neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of his hand or arm with the
ball firmly in his control starts the forward pass. If a Team B player contacts
the passer or ball after forward
movement begins and the ball leaves the
passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes
the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).
c. When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled during an attempted
forward pass.
d. A snap becomes a backward pass when the snapper releases the ball (A.R.
2-23-1-I).
Crosses Neutral Zone
ARTICLE 3. a. A legal forward pass has crossed the neutral zone when it first
strikes the ground, a player, an official or anything beyond the neutral zone
inbounds. It has not crossed the neutral zone when it first strikes the ground, a
player, an official or anything in or behind the neutral zone inbounds.
b. A player has crossed the neutral zone if his entire body has been beyond the
neutral zone.
c. A legal forward pass is beyond or behind the neutral zone where it crosses
the sideline.
Catchable Forward Pass
ARTICLE 4. A catchable forward pass is an untouched legal forward pass
beyond the neutral zone to an eligible player who has a reasonable opportunity
to catch the ball. When in question, a legal forward pass is catchable.
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Because the Neutral Zone is essential to a pass, here is the definition of the Neutral Zone:
SECTION 17. The Neutral Zone
ARTICLE 1. a. The neutral zone is the space between the two lines of
scrimmage
extended to the sidelines and is the length of the ball.
b. The neutral zone is established when the ball is ready for play and is resting
on the ground with its long axis at right angles to the scrimmage line and
parallel to the sidelines.
c. The neutral zone exists until there is a change of team possession, until a
scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone or until the ball is declared dead.
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And a definition of a Kickoff as a Free Kick Down:
Free Kick
ARTICLE 5. a. A free kick is a kick by a player of the team in possession made
under restrictions specified in Rules 4-1-4, 6-1-1 and 6-1-2.
b. A free kick after a safety may be a punt, drop kick or place kick.
Kickoff
ARTICLE 6. A kickoff is a free kick that starts each half and follows each try or
field goal (Exception: In extra periods). It must be a place kick or a drop kick.
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The rules make distinctions between Scrimmage Downs (and Scrimmage kicks such as punts and field goal attempts) and Free Kick Downs. As far as I can tell, there is no Neutral Zone on a Free Kick Down, as they specify a Restraining Line instead:
SECTION 1. Free Kicks
Restraining Lines
ARTICLE 1. For any free kick formation, the kicking team’s restraining line
shall be the yard line through the most forward point from which the ball shall
be kicked, and the receiving team’s restraining line shall be the yard line 10
yards beyond that point. Unless relocated by a penalty, the kicking team’s
restraining line on a kickoff shall be its 35-yard line, and for a free kick after a
safety, its 20-yard line.
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For further reference, here are the rules for legally recovering a free kick:
Touching and Recovery of a Free Kick
ARTICLE 3. a. No Team A player may touch a free-kicked ball until after:
1. It touches a Team B player (Exception: Rules 6-1-4 and 6-5-1-b);
2. It breaks the plane of and remains beyond Team B’s restraining line
(Exception: Rule 6-4-1) (A.R. 2-12-5-I); or
3. It touches any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B’s restraining line.
Thereafter, all players of Team A become eligible to touch, recover or catch
the kick.
b. Any other touching by Team A is illegal touching, a violation that, when the
ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege of taking the ball
at the spot of the violation.
c. If there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team, or if there
are offsetting fouls, the illegal touching privilege is canceled (A.R. 6-1-3-I).
d. Illegal touching in Team A’s end zone is ignored.
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And Finally, one last section of the rules denoting legal and illegal forward passes:
SECTION 3. Forward Pass
Legal Forward Pass
ARTICLE 1. Team A may make one forward pass during each scrimmage down
before team possession changes, provided the pass is thrown from a point in or
behind the neutral zone.
Illegal Forward Pass
ARTICLE 2. A forward pass is illegal if:
a. It is thrown by a Team A player whose entire body is beyond the neutral
zone when he releases the ball.
b. It is thrown by a Team B player.
c. It is thrown after team possession has changed during the down.
d. It is the second forward pass during the same down.
e. It is thrown from in or behind the neutral zone after a ball carrier’s entire
body and the ball have been beyond the neutral zone.
FR-76 RULE 7 / SNAPPING AND PASSING THE BALL
PENALTY [a-e]—Five yards from the spot of the foul; also loss of down if
by Team A before team possession changes during a scrimmage
down (A.R. 3-4-3-IV and A.R. 7-3-2-II) [S35 and S9].
f. The passer to conserve time throws the ball directly to the ground (1)
after the ball has already touched the ground; or (2) not immediately after
controlling the ball.
g. The passer to conserve time throws the ball forward into an area where there
is no eligible Team A receiver (A.R. 7-3-2-II-VII).
h. The passer to conserve yardage throws the ball forward into an area where
there is no eligible Team A receiver (A.R. 7-3-2-I).
[Exception: If the passer is or has been outside the tackle box he may throw the
ball so that it crosses or lands beyond the neutral zone or neutral zone extended
(Rule 2-19-3) (A.R. 7-3-2-VIII-X). This applies only to the player who controls
the snap or the resulting backward pass.]
PENALTY [f-h]—Loss of down at the spot of the foul [S36 and S9].
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Ok. I know that what I've quoted above is a lot to process, but let's examine the play within the rules. It's important to note that this play happened during a free kick down (not a scrimmage down). As such, the return team would not be entitled to a forward pass (as the rules state that the team may make one forward pass during a scrimmage down). I also don't see how the play would qualify as an illegal forward pass based on the conditions set in the rules. If not a pass, then it is a fumble, as the definition of a fumble states that it is: "To fumble the ball is to lose player possession by any act other than passing, kicking or successful handing". Team A (UT in this scenario) would be able to recover the ball, because according to free kick rules, "a. No Team A player may touch a free-kicked ball until after: 1. It touches a Team B player". As such, I believe that this should have legally been a fumble recovered by Tennessee.

Now, I am obviously happy with the outcome of the game, and I can completely understand why the call was made as it was in this confusing series of events. However, I wanted to know for my own education, and I am fairly sure at this point that it should have been ruled a fumble, as the rules don't seem to allow for a forward pass to be made at all during a free kick down. Perhaps we'll see a slight rules change or clarification to address this during the off-season.
 
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#44
#44
If your goin to do something that stupid it should be the other teams ball not an illigal forward pass. It was the weirdest play I've seen in a long time.
 
#45
#45
Thanks First&Tenn for your analysis.. I agree with your conclusion. Clearly a fumble IMHO. I hope CBJ has the NCAA look at this play and talk with the refs before future events cause Tennessee to lose a game on this type of play.

because, if had been against us, as luck would have it, it would have gone against us. :(
 
#46
#46
First&Tenn said:
Now, I am obviously happy with the outcome of the game, and I can completely understand why the call was made as it was in this confusing series of events. However, I wanted to know for my own education, and I am fairly sure at this point that it should have been ruled a fumble, as the rules don't seem to allow for a forward pass to be made at all during a free kick down. Perhaps we'll see a slight rules change or clarification to address this during the off-season.
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SECTION 3. Forward Pass

ARTICLE 2. A forward pass is illegal if:

c. It is thrown after team possession has changed during the down.
 
#48
#48
First&Tenn said:
And Finally, one last section of the rules denoting legal and illegal forward passes:


Ok. I know that what I've quoted above is a lot to process, but let's examine the play within the rules. It's important to note that this play happened during a free kick down (not a scrimmage down). As such, the return team would not be entitled to a forward pass (as the rules state that the team may make one forward pass during a scrimmage down). I also don't see how the play would qualify as an illegal forward pass based on the conditions set in the rules. If not a pass, then it is a fumble, as the definition of a fumble states that it is: "To fumble the ball is to lose player possession by any act other than passing, kicking or successful handing". Team A (UT in this scenario) would be able to recover the ball, because according to free kick rules, "a. No Team A player may touch a free-kicked ball until after: 1. It touches a Team B player". As such, I believe that this should have legally been a fumble recovered by Tennessee.

Now, I am obviously happy with the outcome of the game, and I can completely understand why the call was made as it was in this confusing series of events. However, I wanted to know for my own education, and I am fairly sure at this point that it should have been ruled a fumble, as the rules don't seem to allow for a forward pass to be made at all during a free kick down. Perhaps we'll see a slight rules change or clarification to address this during the off-season.
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Are you familiar with the Music City Miracle? The whole debate was whether or not it was an illegal forward pass. If it wasn't a lateral, it would have been an illegal forward pass.
 
#49
#49
Volview said:
SECTION 3. Forward Pass

ARTICLE 2. A forward pass is illegal if:

c. It is thrown after team possession has changed during the down.
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It did change posession when the kicker kicked the ball and the Iowa player gained posession. If a forward pass is possible on a free kick down, you have a good point. I still question, however, if a forward pass of any kind can occur outside of a scrimmage down.

As I said in my initial post, still not 100% sure how it should be called.
 
#50
#50
First&Tenn said:
It did change posession when the kicker kicked the ball and the Iowa player gained posession. If a forward pass is possible on a free kick down, you have a good point. I still question, however, if a forward pass of any kind can occur outside of a scrimmage down.

As I said in my initial post, still not 100% sure how it should be called.
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Illegal forward passes happen fairly often on kickoff/punt returns especially near the end of the game.
 
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