Weight room overhaul

#126
#126
cHiZzLeVOL said:
I feel like I just ran into a brick wall of knowledge. Obviously you know more on the S&C side than I do. So since you do why don't you give me what you think they should be doing and your evaluation of our players from last year to this year.
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I will offer my opinion to the VN forum.

I have no data from either past or present UT S/C staffs that addresses the athletic improvement, or lack thereof, or the injury-related issues of training athletes, to be able to make any specific reviews or recommendations.

They are observably bigger (the starters from last year) than they were last year. Guarantano doesn't look like a string bean anymore and weighs more of which all appears to be muscle.

Again I would like to hear your honest evaluation and take.
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I owe you a :hi: of respect for your efforts.

There is no direct correlation, that can be proven by scientific study, between "weight training" or any strength/power training program that can be linked to injury prevention.

Wts, S/C, knowing this, will roll the dice with Chance in hopes that this team or that team they coach will be publicly judged to be relatively free from injury. Too many S/C coaches are very aware that simple programs can be cosmetically enhancing - doesn't take much to hypertrophy gastrocs, bi-tris, delts and forearms which are the observable anatomical parts when in uniform - and choose to either allow athletes to train accordingly or support regimes that are cosmetically oriented.

They see the success of their jobs are, in many ways, out of their hands anyway. W-Ls and appearance are the rule of the day, the former they have no control, the latter they do.

As is evidenced by many of our VN posters.
 
#128
#128
VolBraniac said:
The question is "bigger gains". "Bigger gains" should imply better athletic performance v.s simple hypertrophy (visible muscular growth).

There is a reason that the premier power athletes (Olympic lifters) use machine-based training only in isolated physiological situations and rehab/post rehab. It is to regain muscular size after periods of [complete or limited] inactivity.

Athletic gains best occur when power is optimized in the S/C environment. A S/C coach wants to enhance the athlete's ability to apply force, absorb force, and to do so in a highly dynamic environment (e.g any play in football).
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What exactly does an Olympic lifter have to do with football? I would think training for FB and training for one specific movement are totally different things. If machines are better wouldnt you see every NFL team rely on machines instead? Now I agree in the fact that they can be used together as I do on a daily basis.
 
#129
#129

Originally Posted by VolBraniac View Post
The question is "bigger gains". "Bigger gains" should imply better athletic performance v.s simple hypertrophy (visible muscular growth).

There is a reason that the premier power athletes (Olympic lifters) use machine-based training only in isolated physiological situations and rehab/post rehab. It is to regain muscular size after periods of [complete or limited] inactivity.

Athletic gains best occur when power is optimized in the S/C environment. A S/C coach wants to enhance the athlete's ability to apply force, absorb force, and to do so in a highly dynamic environment (e.g any play in football).

Brave Volunteer said:
Yeah but why is this seemingly new to OUR program? I thought this philosophy was widely accepted among all Division 1 S&C programs. In fact, I'm pretty sure this was implemented at one time under Fulmer after Nebraska physically destroyed us in 97.
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Nebraska, in that period of time, where there was no testing for certain anabolics, became the King Of 'Roid use. They combined that with a S/C program that accentuated the Olympic lifts and their variables. The combination produced, what was considered then, the near-perfect football player. In many ways, since anabolic use hadn't been studied extensively (except in Russia, E. Germany, etc.), it was considered in the West as revolutionary.

Btw, Nebraska S/Cs were well versed in the concepts of periodization as outlined by Mel Siff studies especially those written with Yuri Verkhoshanky

Fulmer bought in and so did then S/C John Stuckey and overlooked our own limited anabolic usage by players.

I was at the Orange Bowl near the sidelines and the physical differences, the level of play, were easily noticeable as they kicked our ass. :cray:

To your ?? re: what S/C know v.s what they apply, see this:

Weight room overhaul
 
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#130
#130
There is no direct correlation, that can be proven by scientific study, between "weight training" or any strength/power training program that can be linked to injury prevention.


I disagree with this statement. Poor technique and form seems to be a big issue with crossfit. I am not saying that the previous staff or staffs were teaching bad technique or form. Although one of the guys we had was only being paid what 60K dollars a year? Do you really think he was paying that much attention? I will agree that the visual gains literally mean nothing.
 
#131
#131
AndyMizunogolfer said:
What exactly does an Olympic lifter have to do with football? I would think training for FB and training for one specific movement are totally different things. If machines are better wouldnt you see every NFL team rely on machines instead? Now I agree in the fact that they can be used together as I do on a daily basis.
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OLifting is the most effective way to develop power (p=E/t) i.e. the ability to move mass as quickly as possible. A good S/C understands the energetic physiology of the athletic pursuits in question and constructs regimes and programs that key on just that. Teaching the body to develop power.

I have no idea what level of hypertrophy you have sustained, hyper being the initial focus of most S/C programs where little to no muscular growth has been obtained.

Even then, I had 10-15yo ballerinas who were lifting for both, exercises on machines for muscular growth and cleans/jerks, pulls, squats and all variations, snatches and similar power lifts.

As an aside, as you are a golfer, training for golf, power from a stabilized platform, is significantly different from the other dynamic, movement-based sports. How many over-hypertrophied, beast-looking Hulk-like professional golfers do you see?
 
#132
#132
VolBraniac said:
Stop.

There is no S or C methodology which can be proven to directly affect injury rates. The reason is that the subject is not quantifiable.

Simply, it is a guessing game based on the measurable gains in strength, power and plyometric capabilities. The correlation between "gains" and injury probabilities is suggested but unproven and never will be in any sporting activity that incorporates collision, explosive movements and multi-athlete participation.
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Do you have some objective evidence of this. Everything that I have EVER read says that S&C plus training proper techniques are the biggest helps in reducing injuries on the field.
 
#133
#133
VolBraniac said:
OLifting is the most effective way to develop power (p=E/t) i.e. the ability to move mass as quickly as possible. A good S/C understands the energetic physiology of the athletic pursuits in question and constructs regimes and programs that key on just that. Teaching the body to develop power.

I have no idea what level of hypertrophy you have sustained, hyper being the initial focus of most S/C programs where little to no muscular growth has been obtained.

Even then, I had 10-15yo ballerinas who were lifting for both, exercises on machines for muscular growth and cleans/jerks, pulls, squats and all variations, snatches and similar power lifts.

As an aside, as you are a golfer, training for golf, power from a stabilized platform, is significantly different from the other dynamic, movement-based sports. How many over-hypertrophied, beast-looking Hulk-like professional golfers do you see?
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Obviously we don't see eye to eye because you keep comparing FB S&C to everything but another football S&C. Do you have any data to provide using other FB programs? Obviously you want to argue that our previous S&C programs were not the reason for injuries. At some point you have to agree that UT has been 10 years plus of the injury bug. During that 10 years we have rolled through multiple S&C programs. The common denominator in that injury riddled time span has been multiple S&C programs. Take the Dooley days for example when we had what 5-6 achilles injuries?
 
#135
#135
Behr said:
I get it, but I'm just different. I enjoy getting excited, even if I know, or think it won't turn out the way I hope. Not just with football.

Not telling you anything you don't know, but life is full of disappointments and I never know where they're going to come from. So I just try to enjoy everything as best as I can.
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I try to live by the words from Incubus' song Wish You Were Here.....

'and in this moment I am happy, happy'. I find too many times that those moments are fleeting but they are good none the less.
 
#137
#137
AndyMizunogolfer said:
Obviously we don't see eye to eye because you keep comparing FB S&C to everything but another football S&C. Do you have any data to provide using other FB programs?
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Since HIPAA, and in respect for players personal data, S/C will only relinquish program info in terms of numbers not names. It is difficult to make much sense of the efficacy of any program without that information.

Wts, when I was active among collegiate S/Cs, private conversations especially at S/C conventions, regularly occurred in order to make an attempt to match apples and apples.

Think of it this way. Your orthopaedic has hundreds of patients and releases generalized information about them publicly, usually as part of a statistical study. He will talk to other orthos, compare experiences, etc. Same with S/C which is yet anther reason that S/C is as much an educated crap-shoot as it is a science.

Obviously you want to argue that our previous S&C programs were not the reason for injuries.
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I have no idea if those regimes were or were not the reason, part or in whole, for our lousy injury-occurrence stats. Nor does anyone else, it is pure conjecture.

At some point you have to agree that UT has been 10 years plus of the injury bug. During that 10 years we have rolled through multiple S&C programs. The common denominator in that injury riddled time span has been multiple S&C programs. Take the Dooley days for example when we had what 5-6 achilles injuries?
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This is the logical fallacy. Two conditions that might appear to be linked which can never be.
 
#138
#138
AndyMizunogolfer said:
"There is no direct correlation, that can be proven by scientific study, between "weight training" or any strength/power training program that can be linked to injury prevention."

I disagree with this statement. Poor technique and form seems to be a big issue with crossfit.
Click to expand...

You can disagree but you will not be supported by any scientific study (properly controlled) that links organized and supervised weight training to the prevention of injury. It is pure speculation.

As to crossfit "Practice and train major lifts: deadlift, clean, squat, presses, clean and jerk, and snatch. Similarly, master the basics of gymnastics: pull-ups, dips, rope climbs, push-ups, sit-ups, presses to handstand, pirouettes, flips, splits, and holds. Bike, run, swim, row, etc, hard and fast. Five or six days per week mix these elements in as many combinations and patterns as creativity will allow. Routine is the enemy. Keep workouts short and intense. Regularly learn and play new sports." ~Greg Glassman, CrossFit CEO and Founder

When you have this many different, separate and combined movements - typically exacerbated when supervised by Crossfit coaches lightly trained in those complex lifts and power exercises - you have the soup for injury caused by the training. This would be the antithesis of any professional S/C approach to football-related athletic success.

I am not saying that the previous staff or staffs were teaching bad technique or form. Although one of the guys we had was only being paid what 60K dollars a year? Do you really think he was paying that much attention? I will agree that the visual gains literally mean nothing.
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The amount of money is not relative to the success of the S/C program. Any S/C worth his/her mettle, who has any pride or personal reward in their work, will do the very best possible regardless of pay. If you have to drive your S/C by his pay, get a new S/C.
 
#139
#139
Zues1 said:
attachment.php


Surely that picture represents a small clip of what the weight room actually looked like.

Again I ask, did we not rebuild the weight room when dools was here to be one of if not the best in the league at the time?
You're telling me in that period of time we went down to this small picture you posted?

http://www.volnation.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=156114&d=1524669901
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All he’s done is re-configure the weight room, not rebuild it. Taken out the machines and added free weights, changed up the space for the “stations” he wants, stuff like that. He has a very different philosophy, thank GOD, on how to physically build up the roster and is arranging the weight room to match that philosophy.
 
#141
#141
VolBraniac said:
The amount of money is not relative to the success of the S/C program. Any S/C worth his/her mettle, who has any pride or personal reward in their work, will do the very best possible regardless of pay. If you have to drive your S/C by his pay, get a new S/C.
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You sure about that? Name 1 top tier program with a S&C coach making less than 300K annually. I would guess when the #'s come out for 2018 those salaries will be much higher too. Two years ago we took an assistant and tried to make him into something he wasn't. We then got what I feel was a pretty decent S&C guy who just didn't have time to put the program he wanted together before the HC change happened.

Ohio ST 560K
AL 535K
Clemson 450K
OK ST 425K
TX 425K
LSU 410K
FSU 370K
OK 339K
AU 300K
WI 300K
UGA 300K
 
#142
#142
VolBraniac said:
Nebraska, in that period of time, where there was no testing for certain anabolics, became the King Of 'Roid use. They combined that with a S/C program that accentuated the Olympic lifts and their variables. The combination produced, what was considered then, the near-perfect football player. In many ways, since anabolic use hadn't been studied extensively (except in Russia, E. Germany, etc.), it was considered in the West as revolutionary.

Btw, Nebraska S/Cs were well versed in the concepts of periodization as outlined by Mel Siff studies especially those written with Yuri Verkhoshanky

Fulmer bought in and so did then S/C John Stuckey and overlooked our own limited anabolic usage by players.

I was at the Orange Bowl near the sidelines and the physical differences, the level of play, were easily noticeable as they kicked our ass. :cray:

To your ?? re: what S/C know v.s what they apply, see this:

Weight room overhaul
Click to expand...

They did it to us twice, and not just us! Remember they destroyed a very good Florida team as well. They didn't just beat us either, they physically beat us down. I remember at one time it seemed like one our players got hurt every other play.
 
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#143
#143
Brave Volunteer said:
They did it to us twice, and not just us! Remember they destroyed a very good Florida team as well. They didn't just beat us either, they physically beat us down. I remember at one time it seemed like one our players got hurt every other play.
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Kind of like that A&M game two years ago.
 
#144
#144
butchna said:
Hired him to do a job. Let him do it. Who gives a **** about Dooley?
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Say's the guy with the screen name BUTCHna, hahahah

No one gives shat about Doolittle or BUTCH.
My message was simply a reference to a point in time when this took place.
 
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#145
#145
AndyMizunogolfer said:
You sure about that? Name 1 top tier program with a S&C coach making less than 300K annually. I would guess when the #'s come out for 2018 those salaries will be much higher too. Two years ago we took an assistant and tried to make him into something he wasn't. We then got what I feel was a pretty decent S&C guy who just didn't have time to put the program he wanted together before the HC change happened.

Ohio ST 560K
AL 535K
Clemson 450K
OK ST 425K
TX 425K
LSU 410K
FSU 370K
OK 339K
AU 300K
WI 300K
UGA 300K
Click to expand...

I repeat: "The amount of money is not relative to the success of the S/C program. Any S/C worth his/her mettle, who has any pride or personal reward in their work, will do the very best possible regardless of pay. If you have to drive your S/C by his pay, get a new S/C."

Salary is set by perceived or real demand. S/C pays jacksquat at most any level except major collegiate and professional sports programs. Few aspire to the long, arduous hours as HS S/C or personal S/C with little pay to show for it. There aren't many candidates for the collegiate/pro level and salary levels reflect that micro-economic model.
 
#146
#146
Vol_n_LR said:
Could possibly look like some of these also since this is the brand they are going with.

https://sorinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/spring-preview.pdf
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:eek:lol:

Before the major players (Hammer et al) entered the scene, you had two choices for professional equipment. Custom made to existing specs or make your own.

Ours looked exactly like the Sorinex line, save the fancy lat pull gears and the polished look.

S/C hasn't really changed much in since the 80s. Just fancier ways to do the same routines.
 
#147
#147
VolBraniac said:
I repeat: "The amount of money is not relative to the success of the S/C program. Any S/C worth his/her mettle, who has any pride or personal reward in their work, will do the very best possible regardless of pay. If you have to drive your S/C by his pay, get a new S/C."

Salary is set by perceived or real demand. S/C pays jacksquat at most any level except major collegiate and professional sports programs. Few aspire to the long, arduous hours as HS S/C or personal S/C with little pay to show for it. There aren't many candidates for the collegiate/pro level and salary levels reflect that micro-economic model.
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You know the old saying you get what you pay for? We got exactly what we paid for. Just because you have pride doesn't make you qualified for the job. There is a reason the top tier programs pay the money. The person hired has a proven track record.
 
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