War in Ukraine

#88,901
#88,901
apevol said:
The EU tried to pull a fast one on us hoping to align more closely with Putin for cheap oil despite warnings it would hurt them. They walked right into it.

A humbled Russia in partnership with the US as the guiding force of Europe would have maybe been a preferable alternative to Germany running the continent after two damned world wars trying to stop them from doing just that
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The EU is pretty useless except as a bit of a buffer to keep Germany from getting too strong alone AND they trusted Putin about oil without strings when any 5th grade history student could've told them oil always has strings no matter who is controlling it. It's been the best asset for a nation to leverage since the Industrial Revolution.

Frankly, and not to go too tinfoil here, I think there are those in the defense industry who didn't want the US and Russia to have a lasting closeness. It's bad, really bad actually, for the defense contractor business to have Russia out of the bad actor business. Having Russia start crap or threaten crap like in Ukraine is good for the defense contractor business.

I'm not a trusting individual by nature. I'm REALLY distrustful of anyone who has deep ties to war as a business. Eisenhower, who understood war as a horror AND as a business, was a very wise man to warn us that some would value the business of war for the money no matter what the horror.
 
#88,902
#88,902
SayUWantAreVOLution said:
The EU is pretty useless except as a bit of a buffer to keep Germany from getting too strong alone AND they trusted Putin about oil without strings when any 5th grade history student could've told them oil always has strings no matter who is controlling it. It's been the best asset for a nation to leverage since the Industrial Revolution.

Frankly, and not to go too tinfoil here, I think there are those in the defense industry who didn't want the US and Russia to have a lasting closeness. It's bad, really bad actually, for the defense contractor business to have Russia out of the bad actor business. Having Russia start crap or threaten crap like in Ukraine is good for the defense contractor business.

I'm not a trusting individual by nature. I'm REALLY distrustful of anyone who has deep ties to war as a business. Eisenhower, who understood war as a horror AND as a business, was a very wise man to warn us that some would value the business of war for the money no matter what the horror.
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the western Europeans loved Putin because they thought he was stickin it to the americans.

Putin was mad because he wanted America to acknowledge russia as a peer with both being superior to western Europe
 
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#88,903
#88,903
Grand Vol said:
The Wiki article, as much as I don't care for them, does give a detailed history all the way back to 2008.
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did I miss the 2008 invasion of Ukraine by Russia?

or are you using Putin's revisionist history argument too?

there are some very telling quotes in that wiki.

"Even though it was a powerful statement, one person cannot guarantee membership, especially before a country has applied for membership."

"On 3 June 2010, the Ukrainian parliament passed a bill, proposed by the President, that excluded the goal of "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy.[79] The law precluded Ukraine's membership in any military bloc, but allowed for co-operation with alliances such as NATO."

that law didn't get revoked until after the initial invasion. wasn't even on the table to be revoked.

that wiki doesn't point to any "escalation" by NATO.
 
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#88,904
#88,904
apevol said:
the western Europeans loved Putin because they thought he was stickin it to the americans.

Putin was mad because he wanted America to acknowledge russia as a peer with both being superior to western Europe
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Putin really does believe in "Russian exceptionalism" and Europeans are just forgetful that they've been unable to get along with each other for 1000+ years so they like to "unite" against a common jealousy of the American success story.

Truthfully, if we didn't have an ocean separating us, the Europeans would be annoying to bear some days. There's a reason why we're a melting pot nation because all those little nations are incredibly annoying when they start to puff up about their little country. Yeah, yeah, your country is cute but let's get some work done Luigi. Go help O'Hare and Prigowski with their section and let's make some money.
 
#88,905
#88,905
LouderVol said:
did I miss the 2008 invasion of Ukraine by Russia?

or are you using Putin's revisionist history argument too?

there are some very telling quotes in that wiki.

"Even though it was a powerful statement, one person cannot guarantee membership, especially before a country has applied for membership."

"On 3 June 2010, the Ukrainian parliament passed a bill, proposed by the President, that excluded the goal of "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy.[79] The law precluded Ukraine's membership in any military bloc, but allowed for co-operation with alliances such as NATO."

that law didn't get revoked until after the initial invasion. wasn't even on the table to be revoked.

that wiki doesn't point to any "escalation" by NATO.
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NATO had been expanding even in the 90s, which is what the U.S. military warned Congress about. The whole point of it was the military said all you're going to do is make it worse. The U.S. was actively trying to get the Ukraine into NATO, or at least publicly saying it to provoke a response.

All of that is irrelevant now, everyone got what they wanted i.e. a war and we now have new words that need to be added to the dictionary i.e. busification.
 
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#88,908
#88,908
LSU-SIU said:
NATO had been expanding even in the 90s, which is what the U.S. military warned Congress about. The whole point of it was the military said all you're going to do is make it worse. The U.S. was actively trying to get the Ukraine into NATO, or at least publicly saying it to provoke a response.

All of that is irrelevant now, everyone got what they wanted i.e. a war and we now have new words that need to be added to the dictionary i.e. busification.
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NATO doesn't expand, countries request to join.

A concept that Russia agreed to when it signed the 1997 NATO Founding Act.

1755635258284.png

Notice how NATO didn't give a sh*t when Russia formed the CSTO? This is why.
 
#88,909
#88,909
BeardedVol said:
NATO doesn't expand, countries request to join.

A concept that Russia agreed to when it signed the 1997 NATO Founding Act.

View attachment 765260

Notice how NATO didn't give a sh*t when Russia formed the CSTO? This is why.
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NATO is expanding to more countries whether its done voluntarily is not relevant. The U.S. military questioned why there was an expansion of NATO and some what accurately predicted this to a degree, imo. You got what you wanted, you're just going to be upset with the final results.

Notice how NATO didn't give a sh*t when Russia formed the CSTO? This is why.
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That is why the U.S. military started warning Congress. Not sure what the problem is, you got what you wanted i.e. war.
 
#88,910
#88,910
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#88,911
#88,911
LSU-SIU said:
NATO is expanding to more countries whether its done voluntarily is not relevant. The U.S. military questioned why there was an expansion of NATO and some what accurately predicted this to a degree, imo. You got what you wanted, you're just going to be upset with the final results.
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So countries choosing to join NATO, as opposed to countries being forced to join Russia via military invasion isn't relevant?

I see you're doubling down on dumb takes from yesterday.
 
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#88,913
#88,913
BeardedVol said:
Putin disagrees with this statement.

View attachment 765261

View attachment 765262
www.en.kremlin.ru

After the Russia-NATO Summit President Vladimir Putin took part in a joint press conference with NATO Secretary General George Robertson and Italian Prime Ministers Silvio Berlusconi

www.en.kremlin.ru www.en.kremlin.ru
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He seems to disagree at this point.
www.cfr.org

Why NATO Has Become a Flash Point With Russia in Ukraine

Russian leaders have watched with mounting resentment as the transatlantic alliance has nearly doubled its membership since the end of the Cold War. President Vladimir Putin has drawn a red line in U…
www.cfr.org www.cfr.org

You can probably find video of him saying them joining nato increases the chances of nuclear war, just as the U.S. military warned in the 90s.

All of that is irrelevant at this point.
 
#88,915
#88,915
BeardedVol said:
So countries choosing to join NATO, as opposed to countries being forced to join Russia via military invasion isn't relevant?

I see you're doubling down on dumb takes from yesterday.
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At this point, nope not relevant at all. I mean it gives context that you believe Russia to be the enemy, hence why they are in the Ukraine.

You are admitting Russia is the enemy, so.... you got what you wanted. 🤷‍♂️
 
#88,916
#88,916
LSU-SIU said:
He seems to disagree at this point.
www.cfr.org

Why NATO Has Become a Flash Point With Russia in Ukraine

Russian leaders have watched with mounting resentment as the transatlantic alliance has nearly doubled its membership since the end of the Cold War. President Vladimir Putin has drawn a red line in U…
www.cfr.org www.cfr.org

You can probably find video of him saying them joining nato increases the chances of nuclear war, just as the U.S. military warned in the 90s.

All of that is irrelevant at this point.
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Good thing his opinion on the affairs of Ukraine are irrelevant, given that Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and Russia signed the NATO Founding Act.
 
#88,918
#88,918
LSU-SIU said:
They gave a warning that expanding NATO would produce a new build out of nuclear weapons i.e. tactical. The chances of nuclear war at that point escalates.

Obviously, Russia is the enemy as your expanding NATO to them.
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Lol former Warsaw Pact countries sought membership in NATO because of fears of Russian aggression, which have been proven warranted over the last 35 years.
 
#88,919
#88,919
BeardedVol said:
Lol former Warsaw Pact countries sought membership in NATO because of fears of Russian aggression, which have been proven warranted over the last 35 years.
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Exactly, Russia is the enemy and we over throw the government there in the Ukraine and move onto Russia. You continue to admit to it, you're just upset about the final result or will be.
 
#88,920
#88,920
LSU-SIU said:
Its not relevant as its past the point of return, there was no reason to expand NATO unless the enemy was Russia. They are just fixing the glitch.
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Given that NATO only expands it's membership about request from states seeking it, and the fact that NATO is a mutual defense alliance, Russia's only real concern was losing targets of imperialist expansion.
 
#88,921
#88,921
LSU-SIU said:
Exactly, Russia is the enemy and we over throw the government there in the Ukraine and move onto Russia. You continue to admit to it, you're just upset about the final result or will be.
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Which former Warsaw Pact countries did we overthrow the governments, and force them to petition to join NATO?
 
#88,923
#88,923
BeardedVol said:
Which former Warsaw Pact countries did we overthrow the governments, and force them to petition to join NATO?
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That is what the Russians and I believe, which is why people got upset here when I suggested that Trump disclose all the foreign agents in the Ukraine. (all of that is irrelevant at this stage) 🤷‍♂️
 
#88,924
#88,924
LSU-SIU said:
Than what is there to fear?
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Well, they broke off Transnistria from Moldova in 1992 and have been occupying it ever since. Invaded Georgia in 2008, and have been occupying parts of it ever since. Invaded Ukraine in 2014, and have been occupying it ever since.

Seems like a pretty obvious pattern, and a reason for any country in the region to worry about.
 
#88,925
#88,925
LSU-SIU said:
That is what the Russians and I believe, which is why people got upset here when I suggested that Trump disclose all the foreign agents in the Ukraine. (all of that is irrelevant at this stage) 🤷‍♂️
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We went over this yesterday, what you believe is irrelevant when measured against the facts.

You can believe that Livvy Dunne is your soulmate, but that still won't make it true.
 
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